Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

999 replies

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/11/2020 07:40

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/11/2020 13:23

Yes, although I think its a good demonstration as to why including males in feminism harms women

I suppose so. But it also silences us in a way and puts us on the defensive foot and it becomes all about J.J - whoever that individual is.

I find it more satisfying to ignore derailers, personally.

CloudyVanilla · 14/11/2020 13:24

I don't want to get into a debate as I know how trans exclusive this board tends to be (not an insult, it just is the prevailing view) but as you asked I will add my opinion.

One - I don't believe trans women are a thread to women in any proportion that makes invalidating trans womens existence necessary or appropriate

Two - trans women make up such a small proportion of the population that I cannot understand them being the predominant or even a significant threat to women's rights

Three - I do not believe that the recognition of trans women in law could possibly have the purported impact on women it does here. Because of the simple pragmatic nature of women's needs in many sex separated circumstances being literally due to biology - e.g. maternity. And also because of the sheer number of trans women vs women - it wouldn't happen.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 13:25

Here are the testimonials from the article (which doesn’t seem to originate from a feminist or a feminist campaign group, as far as I can see?’

Recently I was in a women’s washroom which was busy, and had a lineup. I left with a femme presenting person who was walking in front of me. We had to pass by the waiting lineup. There was a pair of women in the lineup and one of them looked at my companion with a smile, and then her face fell when she saw me. She said loudly to her friend, “Well, I thought that this was the women’s washroom, but apparently you can’t be sure what you’ll get these days.” “

“Most of the time people think I’m a guy and kindly try to redirect me. If not they won’t make eye contact with me, they get quiet when I walk in and I worry I’m making them feel unsafe, even if its due to some misconception that any masculine-presenting person is a predator. But I guess society teaches women that it’s better safe than sorry.”

“I’ve had three occasions where people have left the bathroom when they notice me washing my hands/leaving a stall/etc. and refuse to come back in until I’ve left. Also, I heard one person whispering not so quietly, wondering if I was allowed to be in there. It’s only happened a handful of times but it stays with me and gives me anxiety to enter busy ones for sure.”

“The funniest to me is when I’m standing in a line of women, after examining the ONLY MARKER that distinguishes the two rooms which is the stick figure with the DRESS ON IT, and I’m just standing there waiting in the absence of other men or urinals, and someone will still think to ask me if I’m in the right place. Like OH WHOOPS YOU’RE RIGHT, SHIT MY BAD. SORRY LADIES. I’ve got some good comebacks if anyone needs ’em, though I’m rarely brave enough to use them. “Are you in the right place?” “Yeah, are you in the right decade?” “This is the Ladies” “Then maybe you should act like one.” BAZAM. I always think of them after-the-fact, though; after I’ve muttered something and slunked away humiliated, not making eye contact, only to spend the rest of the night stewing over it. And what gets me is that I really don’t believe that anyone could actually think that I would be in the “wrong place” – consciously or not, they’re policing my gender.”

“It’s a pretty regular experience for me: clients who walk into the bathroom I’m in always ask if they are in the right one, dressing rooms are consistently a place where I have to confront it, usually I just say “No, I go over here (walk to the women’s side)” when they tell me to go the men’s side. Also, at the gym, women won’t change near me, and I used to get asked to leave. I’m not bothered by it anymore, I get “sir’d” or “young man’d” daily so I’ve stopped paying as much attention. The worst of it was in high school gym and sports: changing in the locker room was synonymous with beating, usually by teammates.”

“I think a lot about how I act in bathrooms to prevent getting a negative reaction. I avoid looking at other people, especially making eye contact, because I worry about people thinking I’m checking them out. Or sometimes when I’m going into a bathroom, or passing someone while leaving, I do things that I think will make me be read as female, like sticking my chest out a little, or kind of smiling a little? It sounds silly, but it helps ease the anxiety. Getting misgendered, especially in bathroom situations, can sometimes put me in a negative place all day.”

“It’s weird because I get all this feedback in the women’s room that makes me sort of feel like I should be using the men’s room, but then I have this fear of not passing/potential more violent repercussions from men which is coming from a weird mixture of being a gender non-conforming queermo AND a traditional justification of separate bathroom spaces based on this “threatening men” stereotype. Like I would still be initially weirded out if I saw a man in the women’s room even though intellectually I know these separations are at their most fundamental arbitrary. Though obviously there are some social functions that have emerged for women to use these non-men spaces.”

The solutions to these problems are short term: third spaces, long term: prioritising SEX over gendered stereotypes.

Letting feminine men use women’s facilities helps none of these women, in fact it reinforces their negative feedback loop that ‘butch’ equals ‘non woman’.

jj1968 · 14/11/2020 13:27

Regarding the derail it wasn't me who brought up toilet/changing room segregation but it is certainly a key issue for trans inclusive feminists. Here's hundreds of VAWG service providers arguing for trans inclusion:

"Nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people have existed for a long time. Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day. In some cases, these protections have been in place for decades. These laws have protected people from discrimination without creating harm. None of those jurisdictions have seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state. We operate and advocate for rape crisis centers and shelters all over the country, including in cities and states with non-discrimination protections for transgender people. Those protections have not weakened public safety or criminal laws, nor have they compromised their enforcement.

Nondiscrimination laws do not allow men to go into women’s restrooms—period. The claim that allowing transgender people to use the facilities that match the gender they live every day allows men into women’s bathrooms or women into men’s is based either on a flawed understanding of what it means to be transgender or a misrepresentation of the law.

It may be hard to understand the experiences of transgender people, especially if you have never met a transgender person. We believe in respecting the identities of transgender people. Transgender people live in a society that often discriminates against them and makes it much harder for them to participate in the routines of daily life.

The efforts to ban transgender people from using public restrooms obscures the fact that all of us, including transgender people, are deeply concerned about safety and privacy in restrooms. Transgender people already experience unconscionably high rates of sexual assault—and forcing them out of facilities consistent with the gender they live every day makes them vulnerable to assault. As advocates committed to ending sexual assault and domestic violence of every kind, we will never support any law or policy that could put anyone at greater risk for assault or harassment. That is why we are able to strongly support transgender-inclusive nondiscrimination protections—and why we oppose any law that would jeopardize the safety of transgender people by forcing them into restrooms that do not align with the gender they live every day."

www.4vawa.org/ntf-action-alerts-and-news/2018/4/12/national-consensus-statement-of-anti-sexual-assault-and-domestic-violence-organizations-in-support-of-full-and-equal-access-for-the-transgender-community

jj1968 · 14/11/2020 13:29

The solutions to these problems are short term: third spaces, long term: prioritising SEX over gendered stereotypes.

Sorry are you arguing that butch women should be forced to use third spaces now as well?

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 13:30

Three - I do not believe that the recognition of trans women in law could possibly have the purported impact on women it does here. Because of the simple pragmatic nature of women's needs in many sex separated circumstances being literally due to biology - e.g. maternity. And also because of the sheer number of trans women vs women - it wouldn't happen.

I transwomen in a female prison can significantly increase the risk for all the women on the wing. Karen White committed 4 sexual assaults in a single weekend in a women’s prison.

So, while your percentage point makes sense on a whole-society basis, it falls apart catastrophically when you look at small, vulnerable sectors of women.

I can’t leave those vulnerable women out of site, out of mind, and still call myself a feminist, personally.

TyroTerf · 14/11/2020 13:31

FPFW are making an excellent point. As single-sex services lawfully exist, some mechanism of proving one's legal sex is required to exist.

The fact that only a birth certificate suffices for this purpose is a bit shit, tbh.

Government-issued sex-ID card that reflects birth sex, can fit in your wallet, and cannot be legally falsified, would do the job nicely. It's not that impractical, we just have a serious aversion to ID cards in this country.

We could even have a mixed sex space that anyone can use, alongside single-sex spaces that you may be lawfully asked to present your sex-ID card to enter.

It could even have your date of birth on it too, so you wouldn't have to try four different shops before you find one that thinks your non-driving forehead looks decrepit enough to buy a bottle of wine.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 13:34

Sorry are you arguing that butch women should be forced to use third spaces now as well?

No, I am saying that people who are distressed by having to choose from a F/M toilet/changing room should be able to opt for a single, non sex designated cubicle.

But no, I am arguing for a society where butch women are recognised as the women they actually are, and not used as political gotcha by male people;

DrDavidBanner · 14/11/2020 13:37

I find it more satisfying to ignore derailers, personally.

Oh absolutely, but I don't think jj is the only one. Lord Sealion of Merail also had a good try to, its all very tiresome.

DrDavidBanner · 14/11/2020 13:39

One - I don't believe trans women are a thread to women in any proportion that makes invalidating trans womens existence necessary or appropriate

In what way is believing that trans women are trans women invalidating their existence?

Butterer · 14/11/2020 13:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

midgebabe · 14/11/2020 13:46

The threat that transwomen May be to women is irrelevant.

If sex separated facilities are not made available then women will be less likely to participate in society because a lot of women are either scared /mentally stressed by men, embarrassed by the thought of men having to hear /see/smell periods related hygiene, barred by religion, unhappy about male toilet hygiene. Invisible women again. That is against our human rights.

Escapeplanning · 14/11/2020 13:47

Lord Sealion of Merail

Grin
334bu · 14/11/2020 13:47

Back to the thread.. anyone out there got a good , properly researched , equality impact assessed piece of evidence that allowing male people into female only safe spaces will have absolutely no detrimental effect on the women using these spaces?

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 13:48

www.4vawa.org/about-ntf

American source. Happy to admit I know little about the violence against women sector in the USA, nor how provision and legal entitlement works from state to state.

Here it is a much more mixed picture, as we have seen from the evidence given at several parliamentary committees.

We know that the provision of mixed sex facilities has contributed to sex related crimes. Voyeurism, particularly digital voyeurism is on the increase, so there has never been a better time to reassert the need for single SEX provision in spaces and services.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/11/2020 13:50

Not RTFT yet but applauding this whole post, have added my bold, I think this bolded part has to be a possible solution - on another post it was described as the need for female spaces and "woman in the head" spaces due to the two different ideas here of what "woman" means:

I'm honestly not bothered if you want to be inclusive of steak and eggs in your proud veganism identity, or inclusive of Labour voting in your Conservative identity, or to self identify as a Catholic while being a practicing Orthodox Jew. Crack on. I might think in the privacy of my head that your definitions are a bit unusual, but whatever floats your boat.

It doesn't matter until you bring your personal religion to other people and attempt to force them to genuflect to your particular altar. That's where the problem is. When you start forcibly inflicting your beliefs to remove words, rights, spaces and identities from others, this is a huge problem. Particularly when you do it in an obviously superior way using the word 'kind' and 'inclusive' a lot while being vigorously unkind and uninclusive and non intersectional to female humans and this is supposed in some way to be virtuous and to make you a better person than everyone else.

^ For women who really feel strongly about including oppressed males among them, let's have gender neutral spaces added to everything, hospital wards, prisons, you name it, and you can get undressed with males to your hearts content. Just leave other female people alone.^

TyroTerf · 14/11/2020 13:51

In what way is believing that trans women are trans women invalidating their existence?

While the validation of male trans people's identities is not feminism's responsibility, I'd like it noted that the invalidation of women's sexed identity is very much a feminist issue.

Apparently invalidating identities is only a heinous crime if you're doing it to people who self-describe as some flavour of trans though.

I find twaw invalidating, I feel erased by it, it increases my own dysphoria. I am female. Why does my heightened dysphoria and the undermining of my identity matter less than the decreasing euphoria and cemented identities of males?

I am collateral damage. Do male-inclusive feminists care?

SunsetBeetch · 14/11/2020 13:52

I thought this was interesting from Benjamin Boyce: the move away from rights based feminism has been bad for women.

(And at the beginning, he explains that Abigail Shrier's book has been dropped from Target stores.)

RedDogsBeg · 14/11/2020 13:56

Oh absolutely, but I don't think jj is the only one. Lord Sealion of Merail also had a good try to, its all very tiresome.

Typical male entitlement and behaviour - listen to me, agree with me, talk about what I want you to talk about, what about me, I'm the only one who matters and I will do exactly what I want, you can't have anything to yourselves no spaces just for your sex they must include me, no words to describe yourselves unless they include me, no political movement for yourselves unless it includes, centres and bows down to me, no space on an internet forum to discuss anything about your rights unless it includes, centres and bows down to me, and just in case you still don't understand IT'S ALL ABOUT ME AND WHAT I WANT AND WHAT I SAY.

Tiresome doesn't cover it, it's a hatred of women that is off the charts.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 14:00

I'm about to be assessed for therapy for all the left wing activist stuff that happened to me; the woman who's supporting me didn't really initially get the context of my experiences, and had the impression that the co-operative movement and activist groups I used to e part of were fluffy and harmless and that i just encountered some bad apples. I told about all my experiences in the full 25 years since I first got in touch with a specific member, and what happened to me with them and others, and she said that if I hadn't named the groups, she would have thought I was a cult survivor. She described the polyamorous activist community I fully subscribed to as misogynist and dangerous to women.

This makes me want to scream with frustration and I’m only reading it - I can’t imagine how it must feel to live it.

Yes, this idea that everyone on the left is intrinsically good and decent and nothing bad happens here is a safeguarding loophole that allows actively attracts predators and then hides their predation for them good of the group’ further victimising the person who actually needs the community support. Anyone with any knowledge of the recent history of the left in Britain knows this to be true, those that don’t see it are operating in the zone of wilful blindness.

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/09/socialist-workers-party-rape-kangaroo-court

Don’t apologise for the derail, your experiences are very relevant. I will hold off posting any more until you have begun your own thread, rather than risk burying useful information in the back end of this one.

It sounds like you have found a good therapist, which is a great first step. PTSD/cPTSD can make one’s world feel very small anyway, the added practical considerations of needing to avoid your abusers and their apologists must make it considerably worse.

I hope you can access a move. Sounds like a good, practical plan to restart your life in a way that works for you.

Butterer · 14/11/2020 14:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 14/11/2020 14:08

@Butterer

Lord Sealion of Merail Mildly worried that you mean me? Im having a bit of a bad brain day, so my perception/defensiveness might be a bit skewed. I worry sometimes that I might be one of the posters referred to on the bunbury thread.
Noooooo!

She’s talking about a particular male user with ‘Lord’ in his screen name, who tried to tell me off (for prioritising liberation from male violence over some sort of unspecified gender equality) late last night.

Your experience is a very real, tangible illustration as to why these arguments are necessary. Women are getting disproportionately steamrollered by this woke shit and it’s past time we all stand up and tell them to go fuck themselves before more women and girls are harmed.

RedDogsBeg · 14/11/2020 14:11

@TyroTerf

In what way is believing that trans women are trans women invalidating their existence?

While the validation of male trans people's identities is not feminism's responsibility, I'd like it noted that the invalidation of women's sexed identity is very much a feminist issue.

Apparently invalidating identities is only a heinous crime if you're doing it to people who self-describe as some flavour of trans though.

I find twaw invalidating, I feel erased by it, it increases my own dysphoria. I am female. Why does my heightened dysphoria and the undermining of my identity matter less than the decreasing euphoria and cemented identities of males?

I am collateral damage. Do male-inclusive feminists care?

In a word, no they don't care Tyro, they don't give a toss about this from midgebabe's post either:

If sex separated facilities are not made available then women will be less likely to participate in society because a lot of women are either scared /mentally stressed by men, embarrassed by the thought of men having to hear /see/smell periods related hygiene, barred by religion, unhappy about male toilet hygiene. Invisible women again. That is against our human rights.

Don't care about old women, vulnerable women, young women and girls.

You said on your thread about sexed identities Tyro that you are not interested in views from male born people, yet still they persist, nothing we do or say is allowed without their input and control.

Pure, unadulterated misogyny.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 14/11/2020 14:14

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Such a shame this thread has been derailed.

Yes. Same as it ever was.

DrDavidBanner · 14/11/2020 14:16

No no @Butterer I was talking about the HGV driver who thinks feminism is bad for women. He made his intentions pretty obvious.

Your experience is why we need this conversation and people like that dilute that for their own ends.

Swipe left for the next trending thread