Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

@MrsKypp

If everyone knew basic biology, none of these problems would even exist

People can be gender fluid, people can change gender, you can have male gender one day and female then next if you want. No problem and we really need to be accepting of this. Respect name changes, respect choice of clothes and just generally be respectful.

People can't change biological sex.

Sports, toilets, refuges, changing rooms etc should be separated according to biological sex.

END OF PROBLEM.

I honestly don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

Which is clearly rubbish because toilets are currently sex separated and challenged are incredibly rare

That was to jj's quite funny assertion

@midgebabe

Which is clearly rubbish because toilets are currently sex separated and challenged are incredibly rare

Thats because people use toilets inline with their gender presentation and always have.

This idea that we can't truly sex anyone and we're just basing it on gender signifiers - I call bollocks.

I agree.

Such a shame this thread has been derailed.

biologically female people identify sex far more accurately than biologically male people

Agreed. Am currently testing this by watching Star Trek: Discovery with a male person, and waiting to see how many episodes it takes him to twig that one of the characters (presented as male) is played by a female-born trans person.

It took me seconds to spot something was off, and by the end of the episode I was 95% sure. Wiki then confirmed. At no point did I check the actor's undercarriage. Face, voice, stature, hands, and context gave it away.

being GNC on grounds of gobbiness not being very ladylike

Obvs I can't speak for all of my people, but I for one am happy to let them claim trans-northern identities to counter this.

No, even if trans people, or people with DSD's didn't exist, if toilets were segregated on the basis of physical sex then thousands of people would face being challenged every day.

Toilets have been segregated on the basis of sex since the first toilets for women were finally built and allowed to remain, thousands of people were not challenged every day and they will not be, you are talking crap as usual.

jj you have an absolute obsession with toilets, you derail every single thread into talking about them. We get it you want to use women's toilets to validate you and how you see yourself, sorry and all that but neither I nor any other woman is on this planet to validate you.

jj
"No, even if trans people, or people with DSD's didn't exist, if toilets were segregated on the basis of physical sex then thousands of people would face being challenged every day."

Thats because people use toilets inline with their gender presentation and always have.

Yet more risible bollocks.

The idea that women’s libbers, gender critical women and second wave feminists are somehow making life harder for GNC women is proper DARVO, JJ.

There are plenty of GNC women who have spoken out on birth sex based segregation based on the fact they already get challenged in single sex spaces. Are you calling them liars?

At least FPFW and Kathleen Stock agree this is something that will happen but is unfortunate collateral damage. To claim it will never happen, when many GNC women are saying it happens already, is, well you'd probably say gaslighting though I'm not fond myself of continually using language relating to domestic abuse to describe what is actually just disagreement.

Thats because people use toilets inline with their gender presentation and always have.

What's a 'gender presentation'? Are we back to stereotypes again? Why are they so important to you jj?

When the first women’s toilets were built (after a long and difficult public campaign) ‘gender’ referred only to grammar.

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

So yeah, bullshit mcbullshitty.

(As an aside, I just found a 1990 letter to the New York Times complaining about the creeping use of ‘gender’ when what the author really means is ‘sex’)

www.nytimes.com/1990/12/27/opinion/l-gender-can-t-replace-sex-but-what-can-667090.html

@OldCrone

Thats because people use toilets inline with their gender presentation and always have.

What's a 'gender presentation'? Are we back to stereotypes again? Why are they so important to you jj?

Because they are one of the key ways gender manifests and reproduces in society and it is very rare to come across someone who doesn't perform gender either in dress, intended appearance, speech, or mannerisms at all.

The women who do occasionally get challenged would not be helped by switching to gender segregated loos, because gender is the reason they get challenged.

Stereotypically masculine clothing and hairstyle, on an androgynous figure, means a lot of people read "man" at first glance. Second glance usually shifts this to "masculine woman".

Such women face occasional challenges because others have gendered expectations of clothing.

If you repurpose the ladies' to be the space designed for feminine-presenting people, then challenges to those who don't go in for the stereotypical hair/clothes/makeup combo will be challenged more, because they legitimately won't meet the requirements for entry.

Jj is advocating to kick out our butch sisters to make room for effeminate males.

My answer is no. I actively want butch females in these spaces. I do not want them to be ousted in favour of males of any presentation.

There are plenty of GNC women who have spoken out on birth sex based segregation based on the fact they already get challenged in single sex spaces. Are you calling them liars?

No, I AM ASKING YOU TO SHARE THE SOURCE Of YOUR INFORMATION. Christ on a bike. References, citations, research, all very important stuff. Just saying shit on the Internet gets us nowhere.

Kathleen Stock is yet another for my list of ‘women who have likely been challenged on their sex but think it’s a small price to pay for the safety, dignity and privacy of the entire female sex class’. Thanks!

There are plenty of GNC women who have spoken out on birth sex based segregation based on the fact they already get challenged in single sex spaces. Are you calling them liars?

Who? Who are they?

that's still dozens of people potentially being quizzed about their genitals or having their birth certificate demanded as FPFW have called for just in those venues

This did not happen. It categorically did not happen and your misrepresentation of FPFW is brazen.

Basically it wasn't the supportive, safe environment I expected. The trans inclusive groups and trans women I encountered prioritised their own safety and networking opportunities over genuinely keeping women safe from sexual violence and racism.

This is utterly shit. Have you managed to access support now? I have a brilliant friend who works with young women recovering from sexual violence (mostly within inner city gang cultures, so incredibly tough work and she is brilliant at holding the line for survivors). Want me to ask her for recommendations in your region?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Such a shame this thread has been derailed.

jj has been bashing away at that wedge trying to get it in a non existent gap for weeks.

jj

There should be no laws forcing people to show a birth certificate or whatever because obviously that’s impractical.

There should also be no laws that punish people for questioning members of the opposite sex in their spaces, or punish businesses for making their accommodations single sex.

For the most part it’s conservatives that was NC-style bathroom bills and it’s TRAs that want to make questioning male people in female spaces a hate crime.

Feminists simply want to protect women’s ability to say NO to men. Trans activists would like to make a woman saying NO a hate crime.

Finally what is “gender presentation”? Do you mean passing? So where should non passing trans women go? I assume in accommodation associated with their sex? Or is it OK to go in the women’s if they remember their gold lame handbag? Also, what’s the difference in “gender presentation” between a very butch presenting woman and a trans man prior to medical transition? Why should the former use the women’s and the latter the men’s?

It’s really pretty simple. No laws either way, but listen to women, and create more third spaces for people not comfortable with the spaces set aside for their sex. Everyone should be able to agree that third spaces/accommodation will help everyone.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Such a shame this thread has been derailed.

Yes, although I think its a good demonstration as to why including males in feminism harms women.

@SophocIestheFox

There are plenty of GNC women who have spoken out on birth sex based segregation based on the fact they already get challenged in single sex spaces. Are you calling them liars?

Who? Who are they?

that's still dozens of people potentially being quizzed about their genitals or having their birth certificate demanded as FPFW have called for just in those venues

This did not happen. It categorically did not happen and your misrepresentation of FPFW is brazen.

That is exactly what FPFW have called for

"To uphold your single-sex changing room policy you can reserve the right for staff to discreetly ask for additional information before using the service you are providing. The only legal document that confirms someones legal sex is a birth certificate. All other common forms of ID, including passport and driving licence, can now be updated on request to show someone’s self-declared gender identity so can no longer be used for the purposes of confirming legal sex class."

fairplayforwomen.com/changing_rooms/

And here is an article discussing butch women being challenged in women's toilets, with several more examples in the comments: www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/

@NiceGerbil

0.3% is 3 in 1000.

3 in 100 is 3%.

Unless numbers or operators are identifying differently nowadays?

Also identifying as non binary is pretty common amongst young people do assuming that all people who id as trans are tw is a pretty big leap.

Any comments on your numbers in the light of that?

I believe the poster said 1 in 300, which is roughly 0.3% as stated.

You were talking (yet again) about toilets, that link from FPFW relates to changing rooms and says exactly nothing about anyone’s genitals. My comment stands.