Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

Times article about it today:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/32ece938-244e-11eb-a410-c62ccdb041f3?shareToken=7f07e411daf93fb732022d8083cd5fd2

I'm not sorry if I've given you more questions..

The questions that you have left me with are not new and I am sure I am not alone. It has highlighted to me, and I am sure to others, that sometimes those who advocate for affirmative only treatment, more specifically medical transition for under 18s are not necessarily acknowledging the truth of today’s transitioners. Rather they stay focused on their own experiences.

On this board, discussing the rights of women and children, sometimes too much focus by mature male transitioners is placed on their experience rather than acknowledging the current situation which is dominated by teenaged girls.

Often teenaged girls with comorbidities that are not well explored or treated so it seems from the growing number of detransitioners. The detransitioners that are ignored, abused by many and minimised by these posters.

And then the long term effects for these children and teenagers of both sexes are minimised again by these posters who have had the capacity for sex and families for themselves. The minimising by mature adults of the loss of sexual function arising from decisions being made by children.

I don’t quite see the level of care from these posters that they profess to have. Barely even any acknowledgement. Or acknowledgement that their male socialisation may be in play. Particularly in who they believe should be listened to from the trans people also speaking out and how they dismiss them.

It is quite hard to miss once you see it.

Never hard to miss the shaming of women tactic these posters take either.

It does seem even this reasonable request to establish if the cosmetic surgeon has followed agreed protocols is considered too much.

@Winesalot
Thats a pretty awful collection of attitudes but none of that sounds like anyone i know. We're all quite egalitarian in our shaming of intolerant or bigoted attitudes.

And FYI, I know people who directly support detransitioners, and I myself have chatted with a few, and one of their complaints is how GCs sees them as nothing more than meat for their grinder, and exploit them in order to bang a political drum. Trans people I know support all gender-questioning people, wherever their journey takes them. We know how hard it is. They are not pariahs to us.

They are not pariahs to us.

Unless they're Debbie, or Buck, or Keira, or...

At least your inconsistency is consistent.

I'm sorry i don't have all your answers, but I'm not sorry if I've given you more questions

The same questions as always, actually.

As for your casual anyway, adoption is a thing I can see that you have very little knowledge of adoption and infertility. Spend some time reading on the infertility boards here. How cruel.

@Datun
I'm referring to detransitioners, so not DH or BA, and in any case I've never said or thought anything of the sort about anyone, not even Keira Bell.

MadBadDaddy

Well, recently we have been enlightened by some excellent remarks from regular posters.

And you never did answer in what way you believe that Buck is privileged.

I was very interested in finding out why.

The Times article is very careful about pronouns and genuinely gender-neutral language - the 'teenager', the 'child' etc. Easy to read if you know the context.

@Quillink

I'm sorry i don't have all your answers, but I'm not sorry if I've given you more questions

The same questions as always, actually.

As for your casual anyway, adoption is a thing I can see that you have very little knowledge of adoption and infertility. Spend some time reading on the infertility boards here. How cruel.

You want to talk about cruel? How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition? It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO.

How is this any better than picketing abortion clinics? Either a human being has agency or they don't.

'Thats a pretty awful collection of attitudes but none of that sounds like anyone i know. We're all quite egalitarian in our shaming of intolerant or bigoted attitudes."

Miaow, how passive aggressive! Just say that anyone who doesn't believe a male can become a woman is a hateful nasty awful....T.....

Thanks for the share token. That mum is definitely asking some absolutely key questions about permanent unevidenced physical ‘treatment‘ vs talking therapies and consent and young people..

Did it ever occur, madbad, that women here react so strongly to cases such as this girl’s mastectomy because we understand at a very visceral level what it is to be a teenage girl and to feel unutterable loathing for our bodies? And to be prepared to do pretty much anything to stop being sexualised? I had more than one friend as a teen who would have cut off their breasts in a heartbeat rather than endure one more day of being leered at and groped.

You looked at teenage girls and wanted to be them, but you seem profoundly incurious about their/our inner lives. Maybe rather than scolding us for not understanding what being trans feels like, you could start by acknowledging that women know what being a teenage girl feels like and that experience, at very least could serve as a useful differential diagnosis in a case such as this.

Being trans isn’t one thing, and the experience of a young male and a teenage girl considering transition come from completely different places, and it’s the very opposite of intolerance or bigotry to state that.

Whats bigoted about not agreeing with surgery and medical processes that are permanent on the bodies of children based on something not one person is actually able to define.

The nhs bullet points are based on stereotypes. And a desire for the bodies of the opposite sex.

Mermaids etc say its not stereotypes or born in the wrong body.

And all we are asking, is what is it.

Surely uts not offensive or "noise" or bigotry to want to ensure that of the decision to make permanamat changes to children's bodies ( adults are free to do what they want) that eveeyone is clear just what they are treating and just what they are achieving.

It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO.

Or vulva people or menstruators or any of the other inclusive terms we are now presented with.

I know people who directly support detransitioners, and I myself have chatted with a few, and one of their complaints is how GCs sees them as nothing more than meat for their grinder, and exploit them in order to bang a political drum.

I find this horrifying, if true. But I'm struggling to imagine what sort of person might do this. I only started discussing this issue out of concern for children and young people who have been caught up in it, and I see similar concern amongst others who post here. When you talk about 'meat for their grinder' and banging 'a political drum', you suggest that we have an agenda which goes beyond protecting children, young people and women.

What, exactly, do you think that agenda is?

You want to talk about cruel? How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition?

You appear to be deflecting from the fact that you can't give a meaningful explanation of what a trans person is.

I find it particularly amusing that an adult male who has had children is telling women off for being concerned about deliberately making young people infertile before they are old enough to have a mature adult perspective.

How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition?

Infertile women who want children already know that involuntary childlessness due to infertility is a terrible, terrible experience. Inflicting unnecessary infertility on teenagers and young people is something that most people would wish to prevent.

That's before we even get to the fact that it is extremely difficult to become an adoptive parent. Adoptive children are not made available to provide traumatised infertile women with babies. It is a solution that is entirely focused on the needs of the child.

I don't agree that my opposition to the unnecessary sterilisation of teenagers and young adults is comparable to picketing an abortion clinic

You want to talk about cruel? How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition? It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO

I’m infertile and don’t have children. How I feel about this is that I am horrified by children and young people being not just permitted but actively egged on into irreversible decisions about their future fertility and sexual function before they are old enough to understand what the loss of those things actually means. Is my “lived experience” valid to you?

Like oldcrone, I’m also curious to know what this hidden agenda is, if you’re so sure that this isn’t “really” about concern over paediatric transition.

Did it ever occur, madbad, that women here react so strongly to cases such as this girl’s mastectomy because we understand at a very visceral level what it is to be a teenage girl and to feel unutterable loathing for our bodies?

That's exactly it. Pointing that out was what got the fantastic Benji (GNCcentric) banned from Twitter.

She said to Katie Montgomery, "You presume to know the female motivators for transition when you are in fact male. What do you base this on?"

4thwavenow.com/2019/12/27/benji-gnc_centric-on-being-kicked-off-twitter-and-medium/

There is a subsection of activists who are desperate to pretend that all "trans" is the same thing, but it so obviously isn't.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Claiming teenage girls having body-image problems are "trans" in the same way as males - particularly late-transitioning adult males - is nonsense on stilts. I don't know how this isn't blindingly obvious to anyone giving even the slightest thought to this.

How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition?

Just wow. I think most people suffering from infertility would be the FIRST to acknowledge how painful it is, and to hope they could prevent anyone else from experiencing the same heartache. You're the one reducing women to "incubating bodies" when you talk about infertility like it's a physical malfunction rather than a deeply felt personal pain.

@Escapeplanning

It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO.

Or vulva people or menstruators or any of the other inclusive terms we are now presented with.

This comment makes perfect sense when one starts with intolerance and works backwards.

All the comments above that make perfect sense if the posters are in denial about the reality of GD and trans lives.

I posted here originally to confront that denial. Nothing constructive can happen anywhere while such denial persists. What I personally believe or know is largely irrelevant.

You want to talk about cruel? How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition? It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO.

First of all, this concerns children of both sexes, not just girls. Secondly, I don't think anyone has said that infertility is the 'worst' outcome of transition, but one of several which could impact that young person negatively as an adult. Other negative outcomes include loss of sexual function, bone thinning, lowering of IQ, the need for lifelong medication as well as surgical procedures which always carry risk and often have an unsatisfactory result. I'm sure I've forgotten to mention a few others.

But I imagine that an infertile person who longs for children would see the deliberate sterilisation of children as a negative outcome.

How is this any better than picketing abortion clinics? Either a human being has agency or they don't.

Finding it a bit hard to follow your line of reasoning here.