Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

Secondly, who the hell am I to tell a doctor how to do their job?

www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/former-bristol-doctor-claims-sex-1556292

from the above article:
University Hospitals Bristol Trust, which runs the BRI, to confirm its view, after a member of the public who read the newspaper article said they would not feel comfortable being treated at the hospital

She told the newspaper the NHS was “running scared” of challenging sex change requests in case they were seen as bigots. The drugs given to teenagers to help them switch genders can lead to osteoporosis, sexual dysfunction and make them infertile, she warned.

she has since moved on to a new organisation.

So basically a very competent, very experienced psychiatrist who had experience working with adults with gender dysphoria and referring to endocrinology for transition speaks out about concerns in children. What happens? She gets hounded out of her job by TRAs.

So, actually doctors are being told how to do their jobs by activists, and the only ones left will be those who don't ask the difficult questions.

In the history of all the controversial treatments in psychiatry there has never been a #nodebate movement like this one.

You want to talk about cruel? How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition? It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO.

An infertile woman is going to feel nothing but empathy for a child who has been knowingly denied their fertility.

Good grief. What an extraordinary statement to make.

What on earth do you think they would feel? Seriously, this is out of the ballpark weird.

And you weren't referring to transitioners.

You said:

Trans people I know support all gender-questioning people, wherever their journey takes them. We know how hard it is. They are not pariahs to us.

"all gender questioning people".

Except those who you perceive as bootlickers, privileged, not representative, blah blah blah.

And yes, what bloody agenda? Seriously?

What on earth do you think is an agenda here?

Preventing children from becoming infertile, having no sex life, being medical patients for the rest of their lives. And, unless I've missed it, the only justification you have given is because you aspire to be a made up teenage girl that you've seen on the tv.

exploit them in order to bang a political drum

By acknowledging that they exist and are growing in population, learning from their experiences and listening to what they want to change about the systems and offer them support to do it?

Because they are females and those that need it ask for support (those that don't ask still know that support exists) ?

I posted here originally to confront that denial. Nothing constructive can happen anywhere while such denial persists.

You haven't explained what you think people here are "denying." I mean, other than you think there's denial that "trans people exist" or whatever but since no one here actually is denying that it's bizarre to keep saying it.

It seems to me that this is projection and you are the person in denial of the reality of the lives of many groups including teenage girls, women with infertility, detransitioners, all the posters here, and in fact you're in denial of the reality of the lives of any and all women.

But gender dysphoria isn't a requirement to be trans.

You keep throwing accusations at us about agendas or bigotry etc

Again its a simple question really.

Any order condition can be defined at every level
For instance
Cancer

And in.being very rough here

Cancer is when cells develope abnormally

Whats a cell

The building blocks that make up every part of our body... brain cells skin cells etc

Whats a brain... the control centre of the body.

Etc

But we can't do that with this.

We have no definition. And that harsh come from gc feminists thats from the experts themselves. If its not stereotypes if its not the wrong body then what is it.?

And that doesn't come from

Other negative outcomes include loss of sexual function, bone thinning, lowering of IQ, the need for lifelong medication as well as surgical procedures which always carry risk and often have an unsatisfactory result.

Yes. These are predictable, tangible realities.

At the end of the day surely we are all on the same side here?
We all want the same thing. Evidence based medical care , amd the very best care possible for everyone, young /old rich /poor , trans ..everyone.

I really don't think GC people are in denial of the "reality of GD and trans lives" as much as TRAs frequently seem to be in denial of the reality of female lives. I concede I do occasionally see some denial of GD as a real condition. But "trans" and "GD" aren't the same thing anyway.

The point is that I (and as far as I can see most GC people) see both women and trans people, as people. You're neither lesser because you're trans, but you're also not special. Women are people and have rights just as much as trans people do.

It's far from clear that many TRAs see women as people with an equal claim to rights and respect.

Trans people I know support all gender-questioning people, wherever their journey takes them.

Except people like me, when that journey leads us to the realisation that trans philosophy is inherently sexist. Then we are not worth listening to or supporting.

Trans people I know support all gender-questioning people, wherever their journey takes them.

Can you define what you mean by 'gender-questioning people'?

@Whatwouldscullydo

At the end of the day surely we are all on the same side here? We all want the same thing. Evidence based medical care , amd the very best care possible for everyone, young /old rich /poor , trans ..everyone.

I agree

They are not pariahs to us.

I am not sure who you are referring to in making gender questioning people pariahs?

This thread is about providing the best treatment option for a 17 year old teenage girl with significant mental health issues. It is something that I am sure many of us posting on this thread have experienced because we ourselves have the lived experience.

That of being a teenaged girl (and I for one certainly hated my own body and have done most of my life because it didn't fit the image I have in my head) and many of us were in fact teenaged girls WITH significant mental health issues.

PLUS there are some of us with teenaged daughters going through this ourselves.

You are coming from this from a transitioned male perspective and that it great to get that perspective. Understand that it IS the perspective that you have.

denial about the reality of GD and trans lives.

You keep talking about denial. I have not seen anyone on this thread denying that transpeople exist or that being trans is difficult at times.

There is discussion about transchildren and that discussion should be had because there is a great deal at stake if diagnosis is wrong. And it has been. That cannot be debatable. Or is that something that you are denying?

And we are seeking to get a definition for GD because of that. Or is this a belief system that just 'is'? Is our seeking to get this definition because it is affecting our children denial in your eyes?

You want to talk about cruel? How might an infertile person feel whenever trans children's (potential) infertility gets held aloft as the "worst" outcome of transition? It doesn't sound very 'feminism' to value women mostly as incubating bodies, IMHO.

Infertile woman here. I worry about what happens to children who take puberty blockers. We should be talking about all the possible things that can happen, including infertility.

Don't use infertile women to hold up your bullshit arguments.

This comment makes perfect sense when one starts with intolerance and works backwards.

Black birthing bodies? Makes perfect sense?

It does take quite a lot of...courage... to scold women for weaponising detransitioners, then use infertile women to score a cheap point.

Indeed, Sophocles.

@OldCrone

I know people who directly support detransitioners, and I myself have chatted with a few, and one of their complaints is how GCs sees them as nothing more than meat for their grinder, and exploit them in order to bang a political drum.

I find this horrifying, if true. But I'm struggling to imagine what sort of person might do this. I only started discussing this issue out of concern for children and young people who have been caught up in it, and I see similar concern amongst others who post here. When you talk about 'meat for their grinder' and banging 'a political drum', you suggest that we have an agenda which goes beyond protecting children, young people and women.

What, exactly, do you think that agenda is?

It is horrifying. Detrans subreddits on reddit were overrun by GC looking for recruits and some were shut down b/c of this. Have a look at r/detrans and how rigid their board rules are. I accept Detransitioners stories might not always be comfortable reading for someone like me, but they still deserve a space to themselves. Many of them remain, or have become, dysphoric, and feel alienated to boot.

Detransitioners have no political value to trans people, so there is no good reason not to be sympathetic. There are also just not that many of them, and not all who detransition do so b/c they are not trans, but b/c transitioning is not always practical or safe.

But detrans rates and stories have a lot of political value to GC causes as they seek to undermine our healthcare and our lives, as they give weight to the notion that trans is not a valid condition, and we are just predators coming for your daughters. Successful, content transitioners are utterly overlooked, yet they are the majority. That awfully one-sided fearmongering Abigail Shrier book is an example of this. (something Buck Angel promoted, if you want an example of why trans ppl look at him sideways)

This comment makes perfect sense when one starts with intolerance and works backwards.

Yes. An intolerance for women.

It does take quite a lot of...courage... to scold women for weaponising detransitioners, then use infertile women to score a cheap point.

It's not the first time I've seen TRAs use infertile women to score a cheap point.

But the very existence of de transitioners shows that current thinking and current treatment is getting it wrong at times.

So doesn't that show the argument for more research and more discussion and better health care?

If its tied up with those who aren't realky trans than that's less space and a longer wait fir those who are isnt it? So better screening would be a benefit.

Do you think a clear cut definition of what trans is woukd ve a good place to start to achieve that ?

That awfully one-sided fearmongering Abigail Shrier book is an example of this.

So, you have read the book? What parts do you think are not true? It is a collection of case studies mostly and not one person that I have seen has come out to say it was inaccurate in recording their experience. Have you seen someone?

And what part of the factual side that she wrote do you disagree with?

I think there needs to be an age set in law. Regarding surgery and medication for transitioning young people. I know what I think 're the whole question but it doesn't affect me so I'm not commenting on the rights and wrongs.

Detransitioners have no political value to trans people, so there is no good reason not to be sympathetic.

Then how come so many detransitioners say they are vilified for detransitioning, by the very community that is meant to support them?

Even you, whilst saying you support them, are hinting at the opposite.

There are also just not that many of them, and not all who detransition do so b/c they are not trans, but b/c transitioning is not always practical or safe.

They're not allowed to detransition. They are still transgender. They are just discriminated against, so they have to detransition.

Doesn't look like support to me, looks like denial.

They certainly have political capital for the ideology, but only by undermining them.

Supporting detransitioners would be advocating for research into why they transitioned in the first place.

But detrans rates and stories have a lot of political value to GC causes as they seek to undermine our healthcare and our lives, as they give weight to the notion that trans is not a valid condition

No. They give weight to the notion that the current treatment options are not working and more work needs to be done to improve them drastically. Their stories are just as valid as those of transpeople yet, they are constantly minimised.

we are just predators coming for your daughters. And no one on this thread as said this at all.