Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

[quote MadBadDaddy]@Winesalot
Regardless of their experiences and backgrounds, the opinions and personas of Buck, Debbie & others are not held in very high regard by a lot of trans people. (Go to Buck's Twitter feed if want to see how and why.) Please don't shoot the messenger here, but they are seen as privileged & unrepresentative at best, and 'bootlickers' at worst.[/quote]
Absolute nonsense. Debbie Hayton talks at length about their transition. They are a self-confessed autogynephile and the interview with their wife adheres consistently to the experiences of many transwidows. It couldn't get more typical.

Buck Angel is one of the first transmen men to have had surgery. Buck is consistently held up as the archetypal transman by every TRA going.

Or is Buck only useful to convince people about passing? Are any thoughts in their head, or conclusions over their transitioning, discarded as subsequently irrelevant?

I would like to know who also is on the ‘unrepresentative’ list datun.

Obviously when it comes to female transition, all the detransitioners (who apparently are in minuscule) numbers are to be ignored DESPITE the fact their bodies and their lives have been irreversibly changed because of the current treatment.

I am honestly trying to understand from a trans point of view, whether any person who is trans can hold a valid difference of point of view and still be respected for their experience and still be trans.

Transgender people who tell us about their childhood often say that they had at least one parent (usually their father) who insisted on very traditional gendered behaviour. I wonder if they don't see this as being about stereotypes because it's so firmly ingrained in their experience.

My darling niece is a transman and her father is a colossal misogynist. I'd have opted out of being a woman too if he was my dad.

If medical groups and support groups can differ in their official published opinions/criteria then it surely transpires that logically trans people would differ in their experiences and opinions too. I mean its normal for people to agree with something and disagree with others. In fact different ideas and opinions are beneficial.

Drs for instance will correspond with drs all over the world in order to keep their knowledge updated and expand in order to provide the best care possible.

Its a good thing even when opinions differ. Even as patients we are entitled to a second opinion and options where possible

Question still remains though, given presumably drs akd support groups communicate with eachother for training purposes etc , there should surely be the very basic definition that they agree on.

Especially when kids are medicated over something no one can define.

Who's right. The drs? With their bullet points?

The groups who insist that uts not stereotypes etc but that removes most the bullet points?

Whos right?

I mean its normal for people to agree with something and disagree with others. In fact different ideas and opinions are beneficial.

It seems not apparently. And people deny there is an ideological aspect....

@NotBadConsidering

All I can confidently say is that I can recognise that I am trans, and I can recognise it in others, but I don't use a series of bullet-points to do so.

But doctors do before they decide to give kids puberty blockers. So are they wrong? Can you tell doctors how they should recognise trans in children, if not by these criteria? A child needs 6. That means if you don’t believe in stereotypes a child will never be diagnosed because that eliminates 4 and leaves only 4. So what would you tell doctors to do instead?

It’s important because it’s being used to make children infertile and asexual for the rest of their lives.

To be blunt, I find comments like these a little patronising. And by 'a liitle', I mean 'very'.

Firstly, "Doctors" do more than just fill in a checklist and dish out pills like smarties after one visit. It is truly horrible how our pathways are considered easy and rapid when they are neither.

Secondly, who the hell am I to tell a doctor how to do their job?

Thirdly: Trans people are generally fully aware of what transition entails, medically, emotionally. all of it, thank you.

Fourthly: By 'infertile' I presume you mean 'unable to get pregnant (as adults)' - this is not always the case, but why is this an outrageuous thing to choose? The world is overcrowded, adoption is a thing, and your opinion is a bit reductive towards female bodies.

Finally, where on earth did you get 'asexual' from? That is simply untrue, (try hanging out with some trans men some time) and in any case, why is being 'asexual' the worst thing in the world?

All I can confidently say is that I can recognise that I am trans, and I can recognise it in others, but I don't use a series of bullet-points to do so.

You have the right to label yourself as 'trans' and live your life accordingly, and you are under no obligation to explain this to anyone else, as long as your actions don't impact negatively on others. If you want to physically modify your body, as an adult you have the right to do this, as long as you can find the money to pay for these modifications. You are under no obligation to have a medical diagnosis at all if you don't feel it's appropriate.

What is under discussion here is quite different. This is about a child wanting extreme body modification (removal of healthy body parts). An objective diagnosis is necessary to protect the child. You say you have known you were trans since you were 6 years old. How can an objective diagnosis be made of a 6 year old child (or a 16 year old)? The DSM criteria are about stereotypes and body hatred. The NHS seems to be rapidly backtracking from this with a belated 'we don't know'.

Compare the archived version of the NHS page (from 6 months ago) with the current one.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200502223745/www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200502223745/www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

Fourthly: By 'infertile' I presume you mean 'unable to get pregnant (as adults)' - this is not always the case, but why is this an outrageuous thing to choose? The world is overcrowded, adoption is a thing, and your opinion is a bit reductive towards female bodies.

Maybe females have a different perspective on this. Particularly since we are now calling birthing bodies, vulva people and cervix havers.

Called. Damn you autocorrect

Thirdly: Trans people are generally fully aware of what transition entails, medically, emotionally. all of it, thank you.

And your experience with female to male teenage transitioners gives you more experience than the detransitioners who are speaking up about this??? The ones you keep minimizing who are saying that there ARE problems and they DIDN’T understand. How can they when negative accounts are minimized and discredited as ‘they were never trans!’ .

These are teenagers and children who are committing themselves here!!!!! These are NOT adults with adult perspectives

Firstly, "Doctors" do more than just fill in a checklist and dish out pills like smarties after one visit. It is truly horrible how our pathways are considered easy and rapid when they are neither

Secondly, who the hell am I to tell a doctor how to do their job?

No one said its easy.

But presumably drs treat trans people yes?

So any papers or discussions at conferences etc would be based on what they have seen, akd experienced from sealing with trans people.

How else do you think they learn. I mean medicine is something that is ever changing. Drs see enough patients who have conditions that exhibit different symptoms to those usually looked at , well they'd make that knowledge known wouldn't they? Or we'd still be blowing smoke up arses or performing trepanning etc

Cross post. No real answers.

Firstly, "Doctors" do more than just fill in a checklist and dish out pills like smarties after one visit. It is truly horrible how our pathways are considered easy and rapid when they are neither.

A child has to meet the criteria for gender dysphoria to be eligible for puberty blockers. They meet this criteria by being assessed. Ultimately they have to meet 6 out of 8. It doesn’t matter how long that process takes, it is still a set of criteria that makes no sense, yet is integral to commencing puberty blockers. And I personally know of children who don’t even meet that criteria, yet are on puberty blockers.

Secondly, who the hell am I to tell a doctor how to do their job?

Plenty of trans people have convinced doctors to follow this pathway, by lobbying WPATH, so why don’t you, if you’re sure how to identify trans kids?

Thirdly: Trans people are generally fully aware of what transition entails, medically, emotionally. all of it, thank you

But children aren’t, are they?

Fourthly: By 'infertile' I presume you mean 'unable to get pregnant (as adults)' - this is not always the case, but why is this an outrageuous thing to choose? The world is overcrowded, adoption is a thing, and your opinion is a bit reductive towards female bodies.

The possibility is removed from them. They don’t even get to choose whether they want to contribute to an overcrowded world or not . Male children cannot produce sperm as adults and females don’t have eggs. Pregnancy cannot happen.

Finally, where on earth did you get 'asexual' from? That is simply untrue, (try hanging out with some trans men some time) and in any case, why is being 'asexual' the worst thing in the world?

Males who go on puberty blockers, and cross sex hormones have no libido and will never be able to have an orgasm. Jazz Jennings talks openly about this on TV. It is physiologically impossible. Females on testosterone have an increase in libido initially, but only those who haven’t been on puberty blockers can utilise it. How does a girl whose vagina has never matured beyond the prepubertal state ever be able to enjoy sex?

Being asexual may be what some people want. But these children will never know any different. They will never experience sex to know that they prefer to be asexual. So to say that “it’s not the worst” is frankly disgusting.

Thirdly: Trans people are generally fully aware of what transition entails, medically, emotionally. all of it, thank you.

At 10 years old, when they might be given puberty blockers, and started on a physical path to transition? We're discussing children here, in case you've forgotten.

Fourthly: By 'infertile' I presume you mean 'unable to get pregnant (as adults)' - this is not always the case, but why is this an outrageuous thing to choose? The world is overcrowded, adoption is a thing, and your opinion is a bit reductive towards female bodies.

Or for male children, unable to father them, which I assume (from your user name) you did before transition.

And do you really think that a child of either sex who has not yet gone through puberty is mentally mature enough to decide to be sterilised?

And it is always the case that they will be unable to reproduce if a child is prevented from going through puberty.

Finally, where on earth did you get 'asexual' from? That is simply untrue, (try hanging out with some trans men some time) and in any case, why is being 'asexual' the worst thing in the world?

This has been documented in a TV programme following a transgender child. I won't name names because I don't want this post to be deleted. And do you think that a pre-pubescent child has the maturity and understanding to choose to be asexual for their entire life?

You don’t seem to understand that the bodies of these children are being permanently fixed at prepubertal state. There is no maturity of genitals, eggs, sperm, prostate, clitoris. Nothing. Think back to your own body and the age you were when there were just some early pubic hair development. That would be your body for life. Can you imagine that?

These children ARE infertile, so much so that the study being conducted by Johanna Olsen Kennedy now explicitly states this in the consent form. Same for sex. A male whose penis, prostate and testes have never matured will never be able to have a libido and an orgasm. It’s just a fact.

Fourthly: By 'infertile' I presume you mean 'unable to get pregnant (as adults)' - this is not always the case, but why is this an outrageuous thing to choose? The world is overcrowded, adoption is a thing, and your opinion is a bit reductive towards female bodies.

Or do you agree that women’s bodies should become incubators (that word gets used a lot) for surrogacy and all the risks of death, shorten life (stoke etc) and permanent infertility that is well documented in this provision for children for those who decide later that actually they DO want children?

You know what? I'm tired of this now, thanks for listening, but this is getting noisy and I have other demands on my energies. I'm sorry i don't have all your answers, but I'm not sorry if I've given you more questions.

So I'll just leave you with this, in case you wonder why people like me get defensive and snarky at times, especially when we get accused of having a monopoly on toxicity. An RT on my Twitter feed today.

twitter.com/Transsomething/status/1104510965381509120

To be blunt, I find comments like these a little patronising. And by 'a liitle', I mean 'very'.

Incoherent, and completely contradictory posts will do that.

Firstly, "Doctors" do more than just fill in a checklist and dish out pills like smarties after one visit. It is truly horrible how our pathways are considered easy and rapid when they are neither.

Tell that to gender GP. One hour telephone conversation, and your pills are in the post.

Secondly, who the hell am I to tell a doctor how to do their job?

For goodness sake, a minute ago you were a nurse who should be consulted about the design of a hospital, your expertise was so comprehensive.

Thirdly: Trans people are generally fully aware of what transition entails, medically, emotionally. all of it, thank you.

Children, it's children.

Fourthly: By 'infertile' I presume you mean 'unable to get pregnant (as adults)' - this is not always the case, but why is this an outrageuous thing to choose? The world is overcrowded, adoption is a thing, and your opinion is a bit reductive towards female bodies.

Got it. Who cares, right?

Finally, where on earth did you get 'asexual' from? That is simply untrue, (try hanging out with some trans men some time) and in any case, why is being 'asexual' the worst thing in the world?

Got it again. It doesn't happen, and if it does, who cares.

Ugh.

why is being 'asexual' the worst thing in the world

It is when it is adults making this decision on a childs behalf. It is when you realise 6 out 8 criteria to identify a child with gender dypshoria is all about gender stereotyping and only two with distress about the body. The rest: they play with toys of the opposite gender, they wear clothes of the opposite sex, they act with traits often associated with the opposite sex, their playmates are of the opposite sex. So a girl who wears tshirts and jeans, plays soldier or with toy trucks, plays with boys and is loud and argumentative ticks the boxes of being transgender.
Add in discomfort of girls with their developing bodies during puberty and I can see how it is really easy to misdiagnose girls with all the nasty consequences of that.

By noisy, do you mean people asking for clarification on the points you post?

You know what? I'm tired of this now...

It's very sad that it always ends like this. But how could it end any differently?

These conversations remind me of talking to religious people - you either "believe" in it or you don't. It's like we have all gone back in time.

I'm sorry i don't have all your answers, but I'm not sorry if I've given you more questions.

Lol. There was only one question.

Unanswered. As usual.

@IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2

You know what? I'm tired of this now...

It's very sad that it always ends like this. But how could it end any differently?

These conversations remind me of talking to religious people - you either "believe" in it or you don't. It's like we have all gone back in time.

I feel exactly the same way.

I feel exactly the same way.

How can you possibly be this antithetical?

You aspire to a fictitious idea of young, female teenage hood, designed to be sexist and sell movies to impressionable kids.

So progressive.