Page 9 | We are now non trans women.....

Angrymum22 · 24/10/2020 20:56

www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/transgender-diary-women-have-huge-privilege-compared-transwomen/
I have been reading David/Dianne Thomas’s with empathy over the last 12 months. It has been interesting and informative until he wrote this piece. By this stage his transition was advanced but he considers himself very much a woman.
It was the first time I’ve ever been compelled to email a columnist to say “NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FEELS TO BE A WOMAN”.
If you can’t read the whole piece this was the paragraph that enraged me:-
^‘ I’ve experienced the difference between walking down the street as an apparently normal man, and doing so as a trans woman. As a man, I did so unthinkingly, without fear. But as a trans woman, even one with nice clothes, a great surgeon and fancy hair, I never, ever entirely lose the awareness and anxiety that comes with confronting a world that I know can be very hostile indeed.

face sky-high rates of harassment, abuse and violence. It hasn’t happened to me yet. But it only has to happen once, the possibility is always there, and part of my mind is permanently engaged in the job of trying to avoid it by appearing normal, feminine and unthreatening.’^

This it what it often feels to be a woman. Even in these enlighten times being a woman can feel incredibly threatening in all situations.

Angrymum22 · 24/10/2020 20:58

Sorry italics fail.

testing987654321 · 24/10/2020 21:09

I am surprised you did reply, so thank you for giving us your thoughts. *
*
Growing older, I realised it was OK for girls to be this way, but somehow shameful and wrong for boys ... Then I started getting a lot of emotional comfort from imagining myself as a female and, eventually wearing female clothing.

It seems you were uncomfortable as a child because you didn't fit the stereotypes that were expected of you. That you then imagined dressing in female clothes and this gave you comfort suggests to me that you felt the feminine role would suit you better. And presumably the young fantasy of feeling better wearing women's clothes you turned into a reality as an adult.

None of this makes you a woman, of course. It makes you a man, who, due to rigid gender roles, feels more comfortable presenting as a woman.

It's a shame that you don't feel you can just "be you" and consider yourself a man.

I hope that you can see from the women on this forum (the whole thing, not just feminist chat) that women have many, varied opinions and personalities, many different strengths and weaknesses and we all continue to develop throughout our lives.

The one thing that unites all women is simply our biology, every other aspects of our lives can be different.

The one thing that unites you with all men is also your biology, you can have whatever personality you want.

I hope this helps you appreciate the views of women on here.

NiceGerbil · 24/10/2020 21:24

'17:05BillywilliamV

Never understood why anyone pays any attention to Tatchell. He was obviously dropped on his head as a baby and has never got over it!'

Just catching up. I agree with those who say that PT was someone I used to admire. And he did get brain damage from his activism:

'Peter Tatchell, the human rights campaigner, revealed yesterday that he has brain damage from being beaten first by Robert Mugabe's bodyguards and later by Russian neo-Nazis.'

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/neo-nazi-thugs-left-me-brain-damaged-tatchell-reveals-1843069.html%3famp

He did put himself on the front line. He was outspoken and his methods were contraversial but his passion for gay rights and his bravery were real.

It makes me really sad that he's putting the boot into women. And the comments about underage sex etc- I didn't know them at the time- are shocking.

But no he wasn't brain damaged as a child but he was as a consequence of being beaten senseless by more than one group of homophobes.

He used to be inspirational. And now look.

Butterer · 24/10/2020 21:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Winesalot · 24/10/2020 21:41

angrymum

I am not sure when I actually felt any empathy for D Thomas. Their transition articles have been laced with stereotypical trope from maybe the start. The bouncing breasts, the tone deafness in talking about the fact they take the same hormones as females on HRT but 4 x the quantity in a HRT shortage (and women need HRT to function and get to work etc), the list is long.

NiceGerbil · 24/10/2020 21:41

Thank you for answering milady.

Your answer is very interesting.

I would ask, why is the focus generally on getting into the female gender role, rather than expanding the male one?

Feminists have been fighting forever to break down the roles and let people be people. We could have been allies. But the route being taken is just not acceptable.

There is no word for the 50% of the population who were born to 'it's a girl' and over the world and through history have been oppressed. We have been chattel. Denied bodily autonomy. Barred from taking part in public life. Still are around the world. To a greater or a lesser extent we get a pretty shit deal all over the world. And it all goes back to our generally smaller size and the fact that we can bear children. Those are fundamentals. Biology is what screws us over.

If you had been born in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under the taleban would you have still felt the same urge to move to the female gender role? My guess is no.

Still you've been very honest and I appreciate that.

NiceGerbil · 24/10/2020 21:49

Butterer yes that the whole point.

Women are not seen as full complex people by many men. We are seen as a collection of stereotypes. When women don't behave according to those stereotypes lots of men get angry. That's just basic sexism.

There's also a weird thing where all men know women who don't conform to stereotypes but the stereotypes are so strong they sort of outweigh that.

The same goes the other way- men like beer and football and strippers etc. But in general it's freer for men- there are many different types of men (albeit still all stereotypes) in popular media. Men take part in bake off and strictly and the sewing bee and it's fine. I think men restrict themselves more than that need to tbh.

But. I'm not male. I don't have that experience of growing up etc.

And that's where we have a huge problem with all of this.

I'm grateful to Renata for laying their honest thoughts out. I wonder though if Renata will reflect. In any of this.

We could all have been allies and it would have been brilliant. But look where we are.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/10/2020 21:50

'I hated women for their privilege in being passive and pampered?' And this is supposed to be compatible with feminism?

Apparently so.

Datun · 24/10/2020 21:51

EscapePlanning
Fetishisng subordination is being a woman.

Well I guess it's there in black and white for everyone to read.

Yup.

I would ask, why is the focus generally on getting into the female gender role, rather than expanding the male one?

See first comment.

Men have all the power. In actuality. In reality. In fact.

You cant fetishise the passivity or oppression of men.

Athrawes · 24/10/2020 21:57

So he must be a non trans male?

NiceGerbil · 24/10/2020 21:58

Thing is that milady accepts their misogyny which is a brave thing to do on these boards.

So let's talk.

yourhairiswinterfire · 24/10/2020 22:02

@Butterer

Something just clicked. A different poster accused a GC fwr regular of hating women. I couldn't see the logic in that.

Unless.... they believe that women hating women fits their assumptions about how women (and by extension they as a trans woman) should/do behave? So misogyny is part and parcel of what their definition of feeling like a woman is?
Sorry if that doesn't quite make sense.

It does make sense. That's a common assumption about women, isn't it? That we're catty bitches jealous of each others looks, or success, or husbands, that we're just frenemies who bitch about each other behind backs etc. It's a theme in plenty of films and TV shows too.

I guess when they realise we're not actually walking, talking stereotypical clichés from a romcom, that we care about each other and can actually work together without getting the claws out, it bursts their bubble because our version of womanhood doesn't fit theirs at all, because theirs is drenched in misogyny.

Deliriumoftheendless · 24/10/2020 22:04

@Butterer

Something just clicked. A different poster accused a GC fwr regular of hating women. I couldn't see the logic in that.

Unless.... they believe that women hating women fits their assumptions about how women (and by extension they as a trans woman) should/do behave? So misogyny is part and parcel of what their definition of feeling like a woman is?
Sorry if that doesn't quite make sense.

It does make sense.

And that’s the trouble with stereotypes. Women are catty and jealous of each other. Women hate better looking/thinner women. Women will always stab each other in the back for each other’s men.

In reality, whilst some women fit this, many (more) do not. Women do support each other, they enjoy beauty in others they will bond over mistreatment by men.

And all the female stereotypes are as applicable to men too. Men put other men down, men are jealous of other men, men will fuck each other over for a women (this is always the fault of a woman, of course). Men hate men who are more handsome, are more muscular, whatever. Does this occur more, less or the same amount as women? I would say it’s an element of human nature. For some people.

On a tangent. I once knew a young man via the internet. He was inexperienced and sheltered, lives with elderly parents and had never had a girlfriend but he simply knew what women were like. Ammirite? And it didn’t matter how often the other men, or I told him that was a sitcom stereotype and women weren’t really like that en masse, he couldn’t shake this belief. Because the stereotype was so powerful, so pervasive it had to be true.

So the idea is ingrained of “what women are like”- only if you are a woman you probably know it’s a bit bollocks, but if you’re a man? You believe what you believe.

Deliriumoftheendless · 24/10/2020 22:05

Cross post with Winterfire there.

yourhairiswinterfire · 24/10/2020 22:11

@Deliriumoftheendless

Cross post with Winterfire there.

Ha, almost exactly the same points. Strengthens the argument-all about the negative stereotypes.

NiceGerbil · 24/10/2020 23:54

'Women are catty and jealous of each other. Women hate better looking/thinner women. Women will always stab each other in the back for each other’s men.'

I was never sure where this one came from because while some women are like that IME it's not very common at all.

I just thought. Does it come from men as well? Heterosexual ones? Who look at attractive women and think, wow men want her. She must know that. Other women know that. They must be competing with her. Because all women want to be desirable to men, that's what they're for.

Yeah that makes sense to me, anyway.

NRatched · 25/10/2020 00:25

Thank you Renata. Its always interesting to see what people actually mean when they say they think/act like women. I am glad you do acknowledge that your story is largely based on stereotypes, or at least you typed that. I suspect this is a very common thread, among many who elevate 'gender identity' above biology in 'being a woman'. However, stereotypes are..just stereotypes. Many women do not follow them, many do, many have a mix..as its nothing, its just preferences and stuff. The only thing women have in common is their biology, and its this biology that is important when we talk about single sex spaces. Its also important when using the word woman, as it simply means adult human female, not any of the attributes that people attach to women, it doesn't mean passive, or nice, or sensitive, simply adult human female.

I often wonder, though it is just a thought experiment really as I cannot see 'gender' fucking off anytime soon (it benefits males too much), but how many people would be 'trans' if the whole 'you should be in that box as you are male' stuff just..wasn't. It would then be back to being sex dysphoria, and I suspect there are a tiny amount of people that applies to. Maybe even back to the 5k original people the GRC was supposed to 'help'

Thanks for trying to explain this. It is eerily similar to many explanations I have seen before, including the many accounts of the parents of 'trans kids'. Entirely based on stuff like 'he liked wearing dresses and playing with dolls, instead of playing football like boys are meant to do'. Its sad really, that the world is so 'gendered'. Feminists have long sought to smash those boxes entirely.

FireUnderTheHand · 25/10/2020 00:34

Thanks Milady for the explanation. It is nice to see an honest answer with clear qualifiers for a change.

From an early age I wanted to wear dresses and look attractive.

Opposite here I abhorred that expectation, got grounded multiple times for dirtying dresses and eventually my parents gave up on feminizing me through clothing.

I also didn't enjoy typical boys' activities like football and games of rough and tumble.

I didn't play with baby dolls, they ended up being donated in unused perfect condition. I preferred my army action figures and steel army jeep - I climbed trees, read books, played the piano and cello, loved doing math problems for fun - and enjoyed playing sports (my Grandma always called me her special girl because as she said I "broke the mold").

I also got bullied a lot at school, mostly because I hated the idea of violence and was unable to defend myself. I also got upset very easily which didn't help the situation.

I get that, I was bullied for showing an affinity for girls and for being overly protective/supportive of my classmates (due to being forced into a support role at 8yrs old because I was a girl and considered mature enough to handle care duties.) To this day my dad calls and lectures me about taking care of my brother and how he is my responsibility (he's 39yrs old) and I am expected by my brother and my family (as well as DH's family but not DH thankfully) to drop everything when a parent is ill, to walk away from my career to care for others while the men get to go about their business.

Growing older, I realised it was OK for girls to be this way, but somehow shameful and wrong for boys.

That's odd I was taught to 'walk it off' about everything, tears were only allowed if you were bleeding or had a broken bone. But my brother is super emotional and to this day cries openly and quickly if his feelings are hurt (same with my dad) and I find it endearing as do most people that encounter their sensitivity. Because my brother is the 'baby' he got away with emotional outbursts as a tool of manipulation whereas I would never had dared go there. I still feel an odd twinge every time I start to cry even when it is justified.

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive.

Neither of my Grandmas were emotional (they couldn't afford it) and neither is my mom but the men in my life are all quite emotional. What I witnessed was the actual privilege of boyhood/manhood in the USA (standard) - they were waited on hand and foot, could hang out topless, could get dirty and a woman would come along to clean up them and their messes, and were treated with a level of reverence and respect while the girls/women were very much in forced/expected servitude based on their sex and enforced by gender stereotypes. I was taught to be somewhat passive and it took years to work my way out of questioning my lack of passivity.

Then I started getting a lot of emotional comfort from imagining myself as a female and, eventually wearing female clothing.

I went a similar route until I grew up and acknowledged material reality and that I am not masculine or male. I just have a personality more closely mirroring stereotypical boy/man traits (assertive, competitive, ambitious, confident) as opposed to the gender imposed upon me (passive, emotional, self-conscious, content).

Cutting a long story short, I buried these feelings for many years and tried to get on with being a "man".

I'm sorry that society is awful to those outside of the box and have a deep understanding of the implications... but I am not a man. I am a woman because of my body, my vehicle... by how I experience the world due to that biology.

Unfortunately the deep sense of unfairness about being forced into a certain social role because of my biology

Welcome to the 'gender stereotypes suck' club

I also became something of a misogynist; perceiving women as a group already enjoying a lot of privilege relative to men but nonetheless demanding even more

Wow talk about male-centric perspective... this is a very MRA POV. Female privilege? Tell me where that happens so I can go experience it (wait, not on this planet? bingo!).

I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role.

But I thought you hated the gender stereotypes imposed upon you as a male? Again, my brother and father are more closely aligned with your perspective of female than I and they are both hereto males. I on the other hand am a female and see your perspective as a grouping of stereotypes that don't describe me in any way or form. But you think like me? Act like me? I mean if that is what makes you a woman and you go about everything as I do (at least on paper without biology considered) we would appear to be men as per the gender lens.

Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings.

I'm sorry but it does completely on every level invalidate your claim to womanhood from every angle (as per me - a female woman) but it does afford you transwomanhood.

And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

Whoa whoa whoa... whew! So... explain to me how my endometriosis doesn't impact what kind of person I am allowed to be? Who you are is your personality not your sex. My body does not define me but in describing my body and its function I am female... it has nothing to do with who I am beyond the trappings of my biology.

Sorry about the lengthy response - I am trying to help you see my perspective as a woman and that you and I are very different. I am an adult human female that rejects gender: woman; you are an adult human male that embraces feminine gender: transwoman. Pushing the idea that you are the same as women is overt appropriation of our female sex class and it has material consequences for human females (medical, law, education, etc). Facts, nothing more nothing less. Not intended to be an insult - it is merely the pragmatic truth.

newnameforthis123 · 25/10/2020 01:01

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive.

Women are vilified for explaining their views based on scientific fact rather than emotion.

Women are vilified for standing up for themselves rather than being passive.

Women are vilified for wanting fair competition that doesn't endanger their safety and make it impossible for there to be a level playing field.

Women are vilified for voicing their fears and told they need to just toughen up.

We can't fucking win can we?

RedDogsBeg · 25/10/2020 01:46

Women are being bullied out of spaces set aside for them on the basis of their sex.

Women are being bullied for speaking out.

Women are being bullied for organising themselves into groups to defend their rights.

Women are being bullied for not passively accepting the destruction of their unique sex class and everything that entails.

Women are being bullied for safeguarding themselves and children.

The only reason for this bullying is that women have had the temerity to say NO to men, men cannot accept or allow women to say NO to them, men must get their own way.

In some cases it seems the bullied have become the bullies.

NiceGerbil · 25/10/2020 01:34

The thing that strikes me is that a lot of the points milady made are aligned with MRA type stuff.

The idea that girls and women have an easy time
Are looked after
Are somehow cosseted and get to do what they want

But all that stems from a male gaze view of what girls and women are for.

About being sexually desirable. Being able to (in their heads) pick and choose.

Privileged. It all comes back to sex and a male perspective.

Which is probably why there's so much disagreement.

If you look at women and think they have an easy life swanning around shopping and having sexual partners at their fingertips then that looks pretty ok.

The problem of course is that men aren't women and are totally shit at empathising with us at all.

When metoo happened the men at my work said omg that's awful. Why haven't women mentioned this? I had no idea! (We've been going on about it forever).

Then. Hmmm. That seems too much. A lot of this must be exaggeration, misinterpretation...

Then. I can't even look at a woman any more!

Bottom line is. Men aren't actually interested at all in our lives experiences etc. Never have been. It's easier if we're 2D cardboard cut outs.

And we know men feel that way. (Obligatory namalt). But pretty much all of them are IME. No exaggeration.

We are what men say we are. Nothing more, nothing less.

And so when women say hold on. We're not 2D. We're not a cutout of pretty skirts and makeup and prosecco and endless admirers. What about all this shit???

They don't want to hear it. Never have.

And the imposition on us now, to accept we are 2D stereotypes. And lose our WORDS FFS. Our ability to describe ourselves as a group. The female half of the population.

It's obscene tbh. I know that's strong. But it is. It's properly Orwellian.

We are to be codified in society, law etc as. A 2D cardboard cutout.

It's an appalling attack. And it's happened. In Scotland. And elsewhere. We no longer have a name.

And still newspapers and governments hand wring about girls this and women that. They use the words when they want.

Whole thing pisses me off.

Datun · 25/10/2020 02:04

@NiceGerbil