We are now non trans women.....

[InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud]

According the lovely Mr T

Ok. There is so much common ground here it hurts. Although in my case, it was masculine traits that led to me being bullied, doubting myself, hating myself

I think the reason I no longer consider myself to be a man really is because of the amount of harm given out to women...all women no matter what was in their heads...which is a direct result of their sex. Why should I go through hours of harmful surgery to get a body that fools people into thinking I am a man?

Surely it is them who are wrong, they should treat me as me no matter what my body is? Again, we echo each other her.

Yet i cannot get away from my body.

No man will ever get pregnant from rape, or die from an undiagnosed heart attack because it presents differently. No man will suffer periods and menopause. That's just reality. It's also they ways in which a woman's body is disrespected in society. Women's bodies are not the default.

I also agree that it would be great if we didn't need sex separation for some things, if we could trust people to be good, or take them at their word. But women know that we can't. We know that no matter how a male person presents, the risk is always there and we have absolutely no way of defending ourselves. And many women have been assaulted...again i would say surely you, having been assaulted can understand ...,the pain, mental collapse, panic, those things remain long after the assault has ended . And for women , perhaps this you don't have the experience to undrstwnd, those feelings can be triggered by a male, any male. It doesn't matter if it's a good Male. So as soon as a male tries to force their way into what should be safe spaces, they are forcing women out. Women who can't control the fear. Why should any woman be forced out of spaces for women because men mistreat other men?

Society needs to accept people as they are.

But we also need to accept ourselves as we are, warts and all
My body is female, pregnancy is a risk, I will never have the strength of most men, or the height. I will suffer all kinds of hurt just because of that body.

I am not a woman because of anything about my personality. I am only woman because of my biology. I don't have to do anything other women do, I don't have to have a single female friend. But I share that biology.

I find it incredibly hurtful for you to suggest that there is something in me , the internal me, that is woman. It's like you are ignoring who I truely am and placing me in a cage

All I can say is at least you tried @MiladyRenata but your entire explanation shows that you know and understand absolutely nothing about what a woman is and what it means to be a woman.

None of what you say remotely backs up your earlier claims that you think, feel, or act like a woman, you may well dress as you perceive a stereotype of a woman dresses.

You admit to being misogynistic earlier in your life, I hate to break it to you but you still are.

I also became something of a misogynist; perceiving women as a group already enjoying a lot of privilege relative to men

What I get from your post and especially the above is that you did not like your box and wanted someone else's box. It looked better and more privileged, and of course it was if you were to inhabit the woman box, as a man. The misogynist bit is striking because as you must realise you want the woman box but hate the woman. I see a lot of that online.

This is what women rail about: those blasted gender boxes. I want boys to grow up feeling ok to be emotional, to not want to fight or play rough sports, to wear what they please without mockery. You felt you couldn't then but now you are an adult you can stand up for who you want to be. And be a man. That is where we should be going, not shaping people's bodies to conform to boxes.

@MiladyRenata

OK, well I'll try my best. Unfortunately this all has to be a bit autobiographical, but I'll try not to bore you with too much personal detail.

From an early age I wanted to wear dresses and look attractive. I also didn't enjoy typical boys' activities like football and games of rough and tumble. I also got bullied a lot at school, mostly because I hated the idea of violence and was unable to defend myself. I also got upset very easily which didn't help the situation.

Growing older, I realised it was OK for girls to be this way, but somehow shameful and wrong for boys. I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive. Then I started getting a lot of emotional comfort from imagining myself as a female and, eventually wearing female clothing.

Cutting a long story short, I buried these feelings for many years and tried to get on with being a "man". Unfortunately the deep sense of unfairness about being forced into a certain social role because of my biology contributed to significant bouts of depression. I'm not proud to say this, but I also became something of a misogynist; perceiving women as a group already enjoying a lot of privilege relative to men but nonetheless demanding even more.

Eventually I cracked the puzzle. I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role. Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings. And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

I hope that all sounds reasonably coherent.

So what is wrong with accepting yourself as a sensitive man? Why does it automatically make you a woman? I think its not the fact you want to live in a woman's role/identify as a woman - people really couldn't care less about that, I genuinely believe that its the fact that some trans women insist they are no different to biological woman, that annoys people so much. There are even some trans women who insist they share specific female biological processes with us, which is obviously scientifically impossible, but to say this somehow labels us as transphobic hating bigots. It's a rejection of biology, science, genetics, common sense and evolution. I'm sorry if that makes you feel bad but that's an unavoidable fact. So why are you not happy with the label 'trans women', as opposed to 'woman'?

I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role. Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings. And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

Not fitting male stereotypes doesn't make you a woman.

Eventually I cracked the puzzle. I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role. Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings. And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.
*
I appreciate you coming back to explain your position. I do empathise with you and how difficult it must be to not feel that you fit.

However, being a woman is not a feeling. It's just not. It's not in the mind. We are born female, we grow into women. Feeling like a woman doesn't make you one. You are projecting what you perceive womanhood to be.

Can you understand why some of us get annoyed? We're reduced to nothing but a stereotype, told we cannot talk about our experiences as women. Everything we have fought for is slowly being taken away because someone male feels like a 'woman' and we must validate that experience for them.

Be proud of who you are but don't claim something that isn't yours.

Ok, a response which is refreshing unusual and interesting. I have some thoughts.

We think like women
And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

You're getting confused between the stereotypes that are imposed on males and females, and 'being' male or female. Welcome to potentially understanding much of the argument made on here, where many posters feel strongly that your physical body should not dictate your personality or thoughts or actions, or how you're treated individually or as a sex category.

Though you might want to free yourself from what you've written above, which implies the other way round, where if your thoughts and feelings don't correspond with stereotypes, you 'must be' the other sex, regardless of your physical body.

We feel like women
Comments as above.

We dress like women.
From an early age I wanted to wear dresses and look attractive.

As above, the stereotypes in our current society assume that women should want to wear dresses and look attractive. And the societal messages enforce this from an early age. Women who don't want to wear dresses and don't feel/want the pressure to look attractive aren't automatically men, they're just women who don't want to wear dresses and don't feel/want the pressure to look attractive. (I don't wear dresses - that doesn't make me a man)

And vice versa, in an ideal world, wouldn't it be great if the men who want to wear dresses/look attractive could crack on without judgement (it sort of happened in the 80's but still with a lot of criticism and judgement).

I sat in a WPUK meeting last year in Oxford University, surrounded by pictures of 'esteemed' men of the university from long ago, dressed in tight leggings and thigh high boots. Clothes are of an era, they're not intimately tied to your biological sex!

We act like women
I also didn't enjoy typical boys' activities like football and games of rough and tumble .I also got bullied a lot at school, mostly because I hated the idea of violence and was unable to defend myself.I also got upset very easily which didn't help the situation.

So you were a boy who didn't like stereotypical 'boy's' sports, and you didn't like violence and got upset.

This made you a boy who didn't like stereotypical 'boy's' sports, who didn't like violence and got upset. There are many boys like this. It's a crying shame that boys like these are bullied. We need to continue the fight to break stereotypes and allow boys and men to be who they are, without bullying or judgement. Not assume they must be girls or women instead.

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive.
So you were a boy who envied not being able to express part of his natural personality, and therefore resented girls. I hope you've developed the self-awareness and empathy as an adult that girls and women can be equally trapped in these expectations, when they don't want to be seen as emotional and passive, and are criticised for being tough and competitive. Rather than continue your misplaced envy and resentment?

Cutting a long story short, I buried these feelings for many years and tried to get on with being a "man". Unfortunately the deep sense of unfairness about being forced into a certain social role because of my biology contributed to significant bouts of depression. I'm not proud to say this, but I also became something of a misogynist; perceiving women as a group already enjoying a lot of privilege relative to men but nonetheless demanding even more.

Eventually I cracked the puzzle. I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role. Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings.

It doesn't make you a woman, it makes you a man who broke out of current stereotypes of what the 'male role' might be.

Your biology wasn't 'wrong'. Society is.

But that doesn't mean that women have to include you in the category of women as a result. It means we should all fight harder to ensure that men who don't feel like they conform to the stereotypes some of society (not all) place on being 'men' are free from bullying, judgement and harassment.

Enlighten me on how just ‘feeling’ like a supermodel will get me on the cover of vogue please or allow me to be the muse of a famous designer?

Ha, I can answer this one. Be a famous athlete called Jenner.

@Katypyee

Transwomen ARE women. You can still be a feminist and support trans women you know.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Feminism does not centre men.

I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive

Oh, bloody hell.

Fetishising subordination is being a woman.

Well I guess it's there in black and white for everyone to read.

@MiladyRenata

We think like women We feel like women We act like women We dress like women

Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that. So why exclude us?

Fuck me, I wish there was a bang head on table emoji

How the fuck do the collective you know how the collective I think or how I feel or how I act or how I dress?

@Escapeplanning

Fetishising subordination is being a woman.

Well I guess it's there in black and white for everyone to read.

This is why so many refuse to answer these questions.

EscapePlanning
Fetishisng subordination is being a woman.

Well I guess it's there in black and white for everyone to read.

I wavered between a succinct response like yours, and the one I did. Decided to do the second for the lurkers, given I was one too, many moons ago!

because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

This is just outright dangerous.

I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive

I suppose this explains why so much hatred is spat on us when we say no.

If this is common thinking amongst transwomen, then us not being passive is ruining their image of what a woman actually is/should be, therefore proving them wrong.

@Escapeplanning

I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive

Oh, bloody hell.

Well, quite.

To be honest, in a world where the misogynist trope that women are submissive leads to men literally getting away with murder by claiming rough sex gone wrong and "she liked it that way" that phrase made me feel like I'd thrown up in my mouth. That's how visceral a reaction I have to the claim that women are naturally submissive. The claim is a demand that we become complicit in our own rape and murder.

But, trying to step back a bit from my visceral reaction, I'd point out that it's been as clear to me from relatively early childhood (age 7 or 8, first time a teacher said "you can't do XYZ because you're a girl") that I didn't fit the "feminine" box society imposed upon me as it was clear to Renata that Renata didn't fit the "toxic masculinity" box.

Now I did go through a year or so long phase of pretending to be a boy, got my mum to cut my hair in a short back and sides, only wore trousers. But then I realised the problem was not with me, it was not that I was in the wrong box; the problem lay with the boxes.

I wonder why it is that some of us are able to realise that the boxes are an arbitrary crock of shit, while others get arrested at the 9 year old stage of simply thinking the boxes are fine but they're in the wrong box?

I was envious of the female gender role

Role play submissiveness all you like. Women and girls don't have to let you into single sex spaces because you envy the passivity you associate with them. We're so much more than this bollocks.

Transwomen ARE women. You can still be a feminist and support trans women you know.

To insinuate that feminism has to support you saying this a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive is beyond the pale.

You know absolutely nothing about feminism and never will. Honestly, you have simply proved here beyond any doubt how the "identity" infiltration of women's groups is profoundly incompatible and women here are absolutely right to resist.

It is sad that someone who suffered being so unkindly restricted and stifled and denied themselves by toxic masculinity and the gender stereotypes that serve it, copes by rigidly trying to unkindly restrict and stifle and deny females by enforcing toxic masculinity and the gender stereotypes that serve it upon them. While retaining enough of those loathed male gender stereotypes to believe in a superiority over females and an entitlement to do the restricting, stifling, defining and limiting.

It comes across in this light as a form of revenge on those females for having what was perceived as unfair privilege in having those desired stereotypes by birthright. It demonstrates that this is still perceiving femalehood entirely from the outside with no understanding of the limits and challenges and restrictions and lived experience of being born inside a female body. It also explains the absolute unwillingness to listen to those females as they try to share why this colonisation is as hurtful to them as the awful gender stereotypical experiences were to that poor child.

I fucking hope someone's archiving that.

JFC.

'I hated women for their privilege in being passive and pampered?' And this is supposed to be compatible with feminism?

Not fitting gender societal roles doesn't make anyone the opposite sex
what it should do is realise that societies view of what boys or girls /man or women should be is narrow and judgemental.
Boys can be sensitive, emotional, kind and gentle. Girls can be tough, competitive, aggressive and selfish. And tbh these types of boys/girls do exist.
If society tries to reject these types of behaviour in the opposite sexed body society needs to change to re-educate itself.
Medical pathways don't fix societies view it only makes that person bend to fit in to that narrow view.
As a woman myself I've had to be tough independent, fearless and struggle through at lot of shit on my own. I've had to stuff down my emotions and make myself small I've had to grow into who I am, accept that I'll always be me even on the days I struggled. I'll always be me inside my female body.

Two non-trans men discussing how trans women can play against non-trans women in sports - love it! For too long, non-trans men have been marginalized from discussion on matters of sport. Time to finally let the voices of non-trans men be heard. Let it known in pubs and football clubs up and down the land - let the non-trans men speak about sports! End their silence now!

Margaret Thatcher was a man, she was just trapped in the wrong body?