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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

We are now non trans women.....

398 replies

InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud · 23/10/2020 20:20

According the lovely Mr T

We are now non trans women.....
OP posts:
NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 25/10/2020 07:10

Peter Tatchell? Pathetic example of a human being: compelte waste of fucking oxygen!

Meknow · 25/10/2020 07:33

@NiceGerbil

The thing that strikes me is that a lot of the points milady made are aligned with MRA type stuff.

The idea that girls and women have an easy time
Are looked after
Are somehow cosseted and get to do what they want

But all that stems from a male gaze view of what girls and women are for.

About being sexually desirable. Being able to (in their heads) pick and choose.

Privileged. It all comes back to sex and a male perspective.

Which is probably why there's so much disagreement.

If you look at women and think they have an easy life swanning around shopping and having sexual partners at their fingertips then that looks pretty ok.

The problem of course is that men aren't women and are totally shit at empathising with us at all.

When metoo happened the men at my work said omg that's awful. Why haven't women mentioned this? I had no idea! (We've been going on about it forever).

Then. Hmmm. That seems too much. A lot of this must be exaggeration, misinterpretation...

Then. I can't even look at a woman any more!

Bottom line is. Men aren't actually interested at all in our lives experiences etc. Never have been. It's easier if we're 2D cardboard cut outs.

And we know men feel that way. (Obligatory namalt). But pretty much all of them are IME. No exaggeration.

We are what men say we are. Nothing more, nothing less.

And so when women say hold on. We're not 2D. We're not a cutout of pretty skirts and makeup and prosecco and endless admirers. What about all this shit???

They don't want to hear it. Never have.

And the imposition on us now, to accept we are 2D stereotypes. And lose our WORDS FFS. Our ability to describe ourselves as a group. The female half of the population.

It's obscene tbh. I know that's strong. But it is. It's properly Orwellian.

We are to be codified in society, law etc as. A 2D cardboard cutout.

It's an appalling attack. And it's happened. In Scotland. And elsewhere. We no longer have a name.

And still newspapers and governments hand wring about girls this and women that. They use the words when they want.

Whole thing pisses me off.

👏 👏 👏 All this ☝️
RedDogsBeg · 25/10/2020 10:25

100% perfect post NiceGerbil.

The only reason the GRA and the GRC came in was due to a man not getting what he wanted, if further proof were needed that it is all about men just look at the exceptions that were introduced regarding hereditary titles.

Greenmarmalade · 25/10/2020 10:26

Tatchell is a non transwoman.

MichelleofzeResistance · 25/10/2020 11:45

Tatchell is a very sad living example of the skewed boundaries and harm that so many children grow up with when they were failed in being protected from abuse by an adult. What he says and what I hear when he says it are unfortunately two very different things.

Well said Gerbil That post was very illuminating to me. We've talked here for years about our confusion when told that someone male identifies as a woman, wishes to be included as a woman, and yet the words and behaviours can seem to illustrate that this person doesn't feel any kinship, empathy, interest in or connection with women as a group or wish to have it - in fact more often what seems to be apparent is hostility and a wish to punish. For example the famous barbed wire wrapped baseball bats so iconic they were put in an art exhibition, 'punch a woman with boundaries' blood stained t shirts on sale, the highly frequent rape threats, the suggestions and threats around extreme violence ('kerb stomping') and I'm shocked I was about to add 'death threats' without really thinking about it because they're so frequent and acceptable now in the lives of women who have any interest in women's rights that they've become every day normality. Threatening to murder women has become a banal thing. Two a day die. Meh.

From that post it seems that it is not about wanting to be a woman so much as about wanting to be a male who can take away and own everything that person perceived as 'woman'. Including the language and the words, all the things that were envied and resented because of perceiving them as being owned by this (to use the poster's chosen words) pampered, privileged and demanding group. It also explains that sense of satisfaction that women are finally getting what they deserve: as Shon Fay said "Enjoy your erasure".

MichelleofzeResistance · 25/10/2020 11:46

Two a week, sorry.

aligran · 25/10/2020 11:59

@Katypyee,
In what particulars are transwomen actually women?
How can they transition if they are already women?
Our biology does not change if we transition.
We can wish transpeople well, to be safe and fulfilled, without abandoning reason.
It is not transphobic to recognise the truth.

Melroses · 25/10/2020 12:30

@Greenmarmalade

Tatchell is a non transwoman.
Now that is interesting - non transwoman, against non trans woman

Defining anything by what it is not leads us down strange paths. One is not a bag of hammers either Grin The Green Party had it nailed with their Non-Man and Non-Woman conference co-chairs - they could have been anything!

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/10/2020 12:48

You mean they weren't extra-terrestrials? Now I am all disappointed.

Melroses · 25/10/2020 13:03

Well, I can't remember seeing anything anywhere that said the weren't.... Confused

Melroses · 25/10/2020 13:04

Anyway, you wouldn't want to exclude anyone Wink

TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 25/10/2020 13:20

Brilliant post NiceGerbil

From an early age I wanted to wear dresses and look attractive. I also didn't enjoy typical boys' activities like football and games of rough and tumble.

There will be a million other boys who felt or feel like that. Personally, I loved football. And wanted to play with Transformers and climb trees. I'm still female. Gender critical feminists want a world where young boys are free to do whatever they want.

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive.

This just boggles my mind. That expectation of women that they are passive leads to people not being able to speak up after sexual assault. It leads to women staying in the most horrible abusive relationships because they've been taught to expect abuse. It means women put themselves last over and over again as parents and as children of elderly parents. It leads to functional illness in some cases, when a woman has no voice and no agency (see Elaine Showalter's writings). It also means competitive, able women are overlooked and not listened to when they have so much to offer the world. Historically, doing little more than dressing girls up as dolls and expecting silence and good behaviour and beauty and compliance has done horrendous harm.

I am really curious about your username, if I'm honest. I'm not sure about the 'Renata' part but 'Milady' brings to mind the Three Musketeers. It brings up an image of a manipulative, powerful woman with a lot of sexual power. A femme fatale. Reading about her, you might think she's an evil character but you're supposed to think how beautiful and seductive she is, right? You're supposed to envy her and feel a lesser woman. Her character is not a passive, cosseted, frail girl who needs looking after. You can correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/10/2020 14:02

I notice the poster who has chosen the username MiladyRenata has, to the surprise of no one, not been back to engage with the excellent, articulate and heartfelt replies about women’s actual experience, about how damaging those stereotypes are for us all, about how stereotypes do not and should not define who is a man and a woman.

Imagine a world where that poster actually read and truly took on board those replies.

Imagine if that poster had empathy for women, actually listened to us, and learned from us.

Imagine that.

It’s pretty difficult, isn’t it?

That particular biologically male trans person (and this is something I have come across before) seems to have no interest in our lives, no empathy for us, no respect for us as people. I don’t think that poster sees us as real human beings at all. Just a collection of stereotypes, and there is nothing - nothing - we can say or do that will prompt that poster to think differently, to see things differently. To see us differently.

This is what real powerlessness looks like. This is what is really means to be silenced and denied human rights. For your voice not to matter. What we are seeing all around us with the erosion of women’s rights, women’s boundaries, the meaning of the word “woman” itself, and right here with that poster’s inevitable refusal to acknowledge the needs, feelings and wishes of biologically female people if they conflict with the feelings and wishes of biologically male people.

Male privilege and misogyny. The “trans rights” movement is riddled with them; entirely based on them, even.

All I have to say to you, poster who calls yourself MiladyRenata, is that no matter what you and your fellow “trans rights” activists do, we will never buy into your toxic, stereotype-reinforcing, misogynist ideology. We will never capitulate.

You have considerably more power than we do at this stage, given the state of regulatory capture and the massive, massive legacy of countless generations of male privilege and male domination that underpins you and eases your way, and correspondingly blocks ours.

But you can’t force us to say what we know to be untrue - and not just untrue, but also deeply prejudicial to our own interests. You can’t force us to think the way you would like us to think. Because, like you, we are actually human beings with minds and hearts and life experiences of our own, even if you don’t realise that.

And, unlike you, we are women. Not men who don’t fit into the man box; women. It’s an actual reality, not an abstract concept. And it’s really very insulting of you to try to reduce us down to a collection of stereotypes - the very stereotypes that have been used to oppress us and keep us powerless for so long! - and say you like the look of those stereotypes for yourself so we have to move up and make room for you in women’s spaces, whether they be virtual or conceptual or RL.

This is a feminist board, remember. A cornerstone of feminism is breaking down the stereotypes that have held us back: you could at least try and be more respectful of us, FFS! Why the hell is it that male people who fetishise being passive and subordinate still do their best to be active and dominant when it comes to telling women where we’re going wrong?

Oh yeah. Because fetishising that thing from a position of power and privilege HAS NOTHING IN COMMON WITH ACTUALLY BEING THAT THING.

SMDH. Just fuck it all.

dianebrewster · 25/10/2020 14:24

The Psychologist Melanie Klein would be having a field day. She had interesting insights relevant to this.

Klein defines envy as "the angry feeling that another person possesses and enjoys something desirable – the envious impulse being to take it away or to spoil it" (projective identification). (Klein 1984, p176)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinian_envy_and_gratitude

TinselAngel · 25/10/2020 14:33

I notice the poster who has chosen the username MiladyRenata has, to the surprise of no one, not been back to engage with the excellent, articulate and heartfelt replies

Maybe they're planning their next attack on the trans widows thread.

Deliriumoftheendless · 25/10/2020 14:33

If I could remember my password I might change my user name to Milady Penelope.

DialSquare · 25/10/2020 14:40

I am a woman. An adult human female.

I was often mistaken for a boy as a very young child. I was into the skinhead/mod revival fashion and music as I got a bit older and wore a lot of "boys" clothing. I've been going to watch my football team for near on 50 years and was very caught up in the football casual wear in the 80s. I'm still a season ticket holder now.

I'm currently watching the Grand Prix.

Privileged? I've been a single teenage parent who only had six weeks maternity leave. I've been underpaid compared to my male colleagues (I know this for a fact as one of them was my ex who told me how much he earned). I've been leered at, stared at, groped, had obscenities shouted at me and many a suggestive comment. None of it welcome. But much luckier than many on here who have been seriously sexuality assaulted. I'm just ignored now that I'm a menopausal women. I won't go into everything else that entails.

Anyone who knows me would piss them-self at me being called passive. Pampered? My younger sister had cancer which she eventually died from. There was no time for pampering in my family. Not that I would have liked being pampered anyway and certainly don't hold it against my parents that their mind was elsewhere.

I'm happy getting dressed up to go out and also happy slobbing about in a track suit. I often don't wear make up and some days don't even brush my hair.

This is just a tiny snippet of my lived experience of being a woman. None if it is how certain people imagine.

DialSquare · 25/10/2020 14:46

@TinselAngel

I notice the poster who has chosen the username MiladyRenata has, to the surprise of no one, not been back to engage with the excellent, articulate and heartfelt replies

Maybe they're planning their next attack on the trans widows thread.

First of all I thought WTF but I really shouldn't be surprised by this.
FleetsumNLangCleg · 25/10/2020 15:07

@TinselAngel

I notice the poster who has chosen the username MiladyRenata has, to the surprise of no one, not been back to engage with the excellent, articulate and heartfelt replies

Maybe they're planning their next attack on the trans widows thread.

I saw that. The complete fucking arrogance, of going on a trans widow thread to tell the women off, when the reason the posters are there is for support from being gaslit and bullied. That was @MiladyRenata all right. Someone who says they feel like a woman and act like a woman.

PP have taken time to explain their positions in little words on this thread, peppered with a certain amount of understanding and patience in most cases, and tumbleweeds.

MichelleofzeResistance · 25/10/2020 15:13

Yes, I saw that too, Tinsel

I was quite shocked any regular poster here would do that whatever their personal politics.

Butterer · 25/10/2020 15:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TinselAngel · 25/10/2020 15:33

Fortunately the woman who was picked on is pretty robust, but that was only by luck.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/10/2020 16:03

@TinselAngel

I notice the poster who has chosen the username MiladyRenata has, to the surprise of no one, not been back to engage with the excellent, articulate and heartfelt replies

Maybe they're planning their next attack on the trans widows thread.

JFC.

Sorry to hear, Tinsel. And appalled.

But not entirely surprised.

KnightsofColumbusThatHurt · 25/10/2020 16:03

So the only time one is actually allowed to refer to 'women' is when one is repeating the mantra 'transwomen are women'.

At all other times, it must be 'cervix havers, menstruators, non-transwomen' etc.

So you can only use the word 'women' when talking about males.....Yep, makes perfect sense Hmm

TinselAngel · 25/10/2020 16:06
  • Sorry to hear, Tinsel. And appalled.

But not entirely surprised.*

Well as we say around these parts, when somebody tells you who they are, believe them.

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