We are now non trans women.....

[InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud]

According the lovely Mr T

I've just watched the whole interview with Peter Tatchell and Jon Gaunt.

I can't imagine why Tatchell wanted to do that interview. Claiming that women have an advantage over men in rugby, made Gaunt do a double take, as though he couldn't believe his ears. Interestingly, he acted less as though Tatchell had taken leave of his senses, which might be the expected reaction, and more that Tatchell was representing, what he called a radical men's rights movement. Said it several times, in fact.

He gets it.

It might also have had something to do with Tatchell's determination to call women, non-trans women. Sort of instantly gives the game away.

I like that Gaunt questioned his attitude to women, given that he is meant to be a 'human' rights campaigner.

Not all humans are human, apparently.

Sometimes I feel as though we are being put back in our place. To the days of being grateful to be the sum part of Adam’s rib.

@Datun

*think like any of us.

(Strewth, what is wrong with me today)

Wrong fingers. Damn biology

@Meknow

I happen to be my personality in a woman's body how I act and feel has usually nothing to do with my biology unless it's that time of the month were my biology reminds me that it exists. Or other only female biological experiences : menopause childbirth, pcos, endometriosis...

I certainly do not assume that I know what other women feel just because they are women too. Every woman is an individual.

I only exist in this biological body because I wouldn't be me if I didn't
I'd have been a different sperm n egg combination.
The fact that I exist is a 1egg v 40mil+ sperm odds.
My body couldn't be wrong because I'm lucky to exist and I'll never exist again.

Now now, don't go mentioning female biological reality. It's apparently very offensive to suggest these experiences are completely and 100% specific to XX chromosome having humans. It is oppressive of you to infer that you cannot identify into these experiences if you want to.

Unfortunately, that comes from a place of sexism, which is imposed upon women.

And from a position of assumed higher rank and authority which should be respected by the subordinates being spoken to. Which kind of illustrates those being spoken down to and instructed on what they may think and how they may identify themselves as 'other'. And lesser.

Whatafarce76 unfortunately I don't think I can identify out of my biological experiences
I'll still always be my personality in this body I was born in and will die in. Which is a pity because I'm a bit short, have unruly hair and allergies that I wish I could feel my way out of.

Never understood why anyone pays any attention to Tatchell. He was obviously dropped on his head as a baby and has never got over it!

How can you think like women. 3bn individuals do not share the same thought process.

We do share biology.

We think like women

How would you know?

We feel like women

How do you know?

We act like women

What's that when it's at home?

We dress like women

Go on then, do tell.

God I'm tired of this simplistic, reductive nonsense.

I just wish people who make these bold statements would at least try to discuss them and back them up. I'd love to have a proper discussion about it. And if the logic and reasoning makes sense to me, if it pointed out something that I have never thought of myself, it would give me a whole new perspective and change my mind. No one is interested in changing my mind though, they are interested in me submitting. Which is entirely different.

Imagine someone just landing on random threads in the Dog House topic and insisting that cats ARE dogs. No logic, no backing it up, no reasoning. Just disrupting a conversation.

@caughtalightsneeze

I just wish people who make these bold statements would at least try to discuss them and back them up. I'd love to have a proper discussion about it. And if the logic and reasoning makes sense to me, if it pointed out something that I have never thought of myself, it would give me a whole new perspective and change my mind. No one is interested in changing my mind though, they are interested in me submitting. Which is entirely different.

Imagine someone just landing on random threads in the Dog House topic and insisting that cats ARE dogs. No logic, no backing it up, no reasoning. Just disrupting a conversation.

The statements aren't designed to be discussed. In my opinion of course. They're designed to wind you up.

Haven’t read the fulm thread. But wondering whether a similar trend or campaign should be started for trans men are men. Because surely it’s only fair. Equality innit.

No one is interested in changing my mind though, they are interested in me submitting. Which is entirely different

Nicely put

We think like women
We feel like women
We act like women
We dress like women

Our biology is "wrong", but we had no say in that. So why exclude us?

That is such a sexist statement, reducing women to some homogeneous mass that thinks, feels, acts and dresses the same and it is fucking insulting. Now apply the same description to all men, the howls of misandry and NAMALT would be heard on Mars, look how women have to mind their words when talking about male on female violence.

And what for the billionth time are we excluding you from @MiladyRenata?

Someone suggested upthread that had a women posted something as controversial as the above statement she would have been expected to explain her views and would have done so, yet @MiladyRenata just dumped and ran. My view is that @MiladyRenata knows they cannot back up this statement with anything remotely sensible or factual, believes their word is law anyway so it can't be questioned or debated it just has to be accepted. No prizes for guessing why that would be.

OK, well I'll try my best. Unfortunately this all has to be a bit autobiographical, but I'll try not to bore you with too much personal detail.

From an early age I wanted to wear dresses and look attractive. I also didn't enjoy typical boys' activities like football and games of rough and tumble. I also got bullied a lot at school, mostly because I hated the idea of violence and was unable to defend myself. I also got upset very easily which didn't help the situation.

Growing older, I realised it was OK for girls to be this way, but somehow shameful and wrong for boys. I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive. Then I started getting a lot of emotional comfort from imagining myself as a female and, eventually wearing female clothing.

Cutting a long story short, I buried these feelings for many years and tried to get on with being a "man". Unfortunately the deep sense of unfairness about being forced into a certain social role because of my biology contributed to significant bouts of depression. I'm not proud to say this, but I also became something of a misogynist; perceiving women as a group already enjoying a lot of privilege relative to men but nonetheless demanding even more.

Eventually I cracked the puzzle. I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role. Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings. And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

I hope that all sounds reasonably coherent.

I can't remotely say what I wish to or I would be banned. So much for female privilege.

@MiladyRenata

OK, well I'll try my best. Unfortunately this all has to be a bit autobiographical, but I'll try not to bore you with too much personal detail.

From an early age I wanted to wear dresses and look attractive. I also didn't enjoy typical boys' activities like football and games of rough and tumble. I also got bullied a lot at school, mostly because I hated the idea of violence and was unable to defend myself. I also got upset very easily which didn't help the situation.

Growing older, I realised it was OK for girls to be this way, but somehow shameful and wrong for boys. I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive. Then I started getting a lot of emotional comfort from imagining myself as a female and, eventually wearing female clothing.

Cutting a long story short, I buried these feelings for many years and tried to get on with being a "man". Unfortunately the deep sense of unfairness about being forced into a certain social role because of my biology contributed to significant bouts of depression. I'm not proud to say this, but I also became something of a misogynist; perceiving women as a group already enjoying a lot of privilege relative to men but nonetheless demanding even more.

Eventually I cracked the puzzle. I was envious of the female gender role because, psychologically, I'm a much better fit to it than the male role. Yes, this does involve stereotypes to some degree, but I don't think this invalidates these feelings. And yes, I do think it "makes me a woman" because I believe a person's mind matters more than their body in determining what kind of person they are allowed to be.

I hope that all sounds reasonably coherent.

Thank you for trying to explain, I honestly do appreciate that.

You say yourself that essentially it amounts to envying the perceived female gender role. Not that you actually 'think' in the same way as a woman does. Don't you feel that your explanation actually contradicts your earlier statements?

I think your story is very sad, and very damning of society in general, that you feel you aren't allowed to be your 'true self' as a man.

I would also be interested to hear what the privileges of being a woman are perceived to be? It's a statement that I hear from mens rights groups often, but no one has ever actually explained what they see the privilege as being.

Thank you for coming back to answer.

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position

Do you think this explains so much of the loathing of females while claiming womanhood from them rather than with them?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I can't remotely say what I wish to or I would be banned. So much for female privilege.

I believe that hive mind may have finally kicked in as I'm very likely thinking the exact same thing as you Eresh

There is no such thing as the psychology of a woman.

There are over 3bn women on the planet. The only thing that we all share is female biology.

I ended up badly envying girls and women for what I saw as a pampered and privileged position where females are expected to be emotional and passive whereas males have to be tough and competitive.

Do you understand that many women do not recognise those expectations as in any way intrinsic to themselves, but as external impositions that limit, reduce and restrict us?

If you did not realise that, I as a woman am telling you it now.

I think if the original statement hadn't used "we" and "women", both plural, it would have been a lot less difficult for anyone to accept; it's the idea that "women" are some sort of homogeneous mass that's so disconcerting and impossible to feel is anything but so so wrong.

I am not the same as all women; I assume (well, no, I absolutely know) that you are not the same as all transwomen. Some men are like Nelson Mandela -- and Nelson Mandela changed, a lot, during the course of his life. Some men are like Donald Trump, who doesn't seemed to have changed a whole lot over the past sixty years or more.

I am sorry you had such an unpleasant life.