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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

URGENT ACTION TONIGHT: SEX BASED RIGHTS

170 replies

MForstater · 19/10/2020 20:36

Fawcett Society and Stella Creasy (I know, I know) have a ten minute rule bill tomorrow on equal pay.

It is about sex based rights but they are not shouting about that

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1318269397987971072?s=19

You can edit the letter to make that point clearer ... It's sex not gender!

My version

docs.google.com/document/d/10l7cD-BHjlths6OySRy-nq8NlsWeBF3a637dNAP_Fc8/edit?usp=drivesdk

Would you do this tonight and share on social media etc ...

OP posts:
Jux · 20/10/2020 13:48

It's men who are the problem for women, and that is because they have determined how they want women to be and women are fighting their male-biased view of what we are. If you haven't been paid less because of your biology then you have no right to tell anyone who has how to behave or how to think. :Don't lecture us on stereotypes, it's the bloody MEN who insist on women sticking to those. The more you lecture us the more male you appear to be.

Biology matters. If you think it doesn't you must be a man.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 20/10/2020 14:08

@ContessaDiPulpo

Do you really want to live in a chromosomally determined caste system? We already do. That's what we're angry about.

Excellent riposte to utter drivel.

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 20/10/2020 14:14

Where's jj when you need him.

Butterer · 20/10/2020 14:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Winesalot · 20/10/2020 14:34

Incidentally, Zach Elliott has issued a challenge on twitter this morning for anyone to reply to his tweet with a peer-reviewed paper from a biologist that characterises sex as a spectrum without using the now 'usual' arguments of sex characteristics, sex development or sex identity.

He has heard nothing but crickets.... I wonder why?

ContessaDiPulpo · 20/10/2020 15:23

@Malahaha

“Do you really want to live in a chromosomally determined caste system?*

*We already do.”

Somebody, please make a meme! This is classic!

My DH says please don't put it on a tshirt as I will become more insufferable. I OTOH am beyond chuffed and would die of happiness if 'twere made so Grin
DialSquare · 20/10/2020 15:37

I originally read it as chromosomally determined castle! Then got distracted daydreaming about living in a castle (chromosomally determined or otherwise)

LadyScience · 20/10/2020 18:53

I would buy that t shirt.

Having spent many years studying the human genome, including the X and Y chromosomes (being vague here for obvious reasons), I do sometimes/often wonder if lack of understanding of the biology is at the heart of a lot of this. Scientific words are being used and abused with alarming frequency.

What was this thread about again? I’ve genuinely forgotten. Top derailing work, PP.

CharlieParley · 21/10/2020 12:41

@MiladyRenata

I'm sorry but I can't buy into the idea of treating people differently, and giving some people extra rights, because of their chromosomes.

If you really believed that men, woman and non binary people should be entitled to equal opportunities, you wouldn't care about trans people. In fact you would see us as allies because we are breaking down the idea of a gender binary determined by one's biology.

Do you really want to live in a chromosomally determined caste system? A female supremacist might, but is that really the goal of modern feminism?

The supremacy of fatherhood, otherwise known as the patriarchy emerged around 6000 years ago. About 5800 years before the first experiments in 1842 which, eventually, led to the discovery of the sex chromosomes in 1905 by Nettie Stevens and Edmund Beecher Wilson, working independently of each other.

It is clear then that as men oppressed women for several thousand years before we knew about chromosomes, the differential treatment of male and female people must have been based on something else entirely.

That something else is the reproductive capacity of the female sex. A capacity assumed for all females from the moment of their birth. And that has material consequences for our upbringing, our rights, our needs and how we are treated.

Gender as the universal but variable phenomenon whereby societies impose sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes on each sex, is never benign for the female of the species. In contrast to boys and men, who are never penalised for conforming to these stereotypes, women and girls can no more escape their oppression by conforming to such stereotypes as they can escape it by being non-conforming.

Because gender is irrelevant to our oppression. Because it is based on sex.
That's why sex matters.

And sex is determined not by a chromosome test, but observed at birth. Based on our bodies.

And whether we are female-bodied or male-bodied, whether at birth we are assumed to be able to bear children or not, is the deciding factor. That is how patriarchal societies categorise us into the sex hierarchy. No one needed a chromosome test for that 6000 years ago.

And the patriarchy that places women on the bottom and men at the top, persists to this day. As Maya clearly states in her OP, unequal pay on the basis of our sex continues to be an issue.

P.S. I realise this comment is already too long, and biology lessons may not be welcome, but sex chromosomes are not the endpoint of sex differentiation but the beginning. As I say above, the endpoint are male and female bodies, which is why sex is more correctly defined as the combination of chromosomes, gonads and genitalia. In unclear cases, both UK law as well as the medical profession will categorise a person as male or female based on sharing a minimum of two of these attributes with their sex class.

viques · 21/10/2020 13:02

@Butterer

female supremacist Righty oh.
Chance would be a fine thing!

Have a look around you Milady, check out the female supremacists in government, in the top ranks of the civil service, on the boards of FT 100 companies, writing opinion pieces in the media, leading debates on current affair programmes, taking part in debates on current affair programmes. We are miserably underrepresented in almost every area of public life, and are expected to be grateful for whatever small concessions we have managed to claim after millennia of being denied even basic involvement in decision making.

HecatesCats · 21/10/2020 13:05

👏👏👏 Charlie

ChattyLion · 21/10/2020 13:10

Charlie that post is a thing of beauty. Star

EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus · 21/10/2020 13:11

Magnificent post Charlie.

MangoBiscuit · 21/10/2020 13:26

That post is indeed magnificent! Thank you Charlie

Winesalot · 21/10/2020 13:29

Thank you Charlie.

Winesalot · 21/10/2020 13:36

We are miserably underrepresented in almost every area of public life, and are expected to be grateful for whatever small concessions we have managed to claim after millennia of being denied even basic involvement in decision making.

And our representation has now been diluted just as it was starting down the pathway for being rectified... But there are 'some' posters on these boards who will deny this continually. It just does not suit their understanding of females and our lives.

And the acceptance of their understanding of females and our lives as being part of the female experience just continues the cycle of having people who have not experienced the same oppression being allowed to represent us....

The lack of acknowledgement of this becomes very apparent after you spend some time reading this board.

Malahaha · 21/10/2020 16:04

Charlie Flowers

Italiangreyhound · 21/10/2020 22:00

Charlie Star

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 22/10/2020 00:28

Does anyone know what happened to the Equal Pay bill that Stella was putting forward yesterday?

IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2 · 22/10/2020 08:34

Thank you for that post Charlie, beautifully put.

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