URGENT ACTION TONIGHT: SEX BASED RIGHTS

[MForstater]

Fawcett Society and Stella Creasy (I know, I know) have a ten minute rule bill tomorrow on equal pay.

It is about sex based rights but they are not shouting about that

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1318269397987971072?s=19

You can edit the letter to make that point clearer ... It's sex not gender!

My version

docs.google.com/document/d/10l7cD-BHjlths6OySRy-nq8NlsWeBF3a637dNAP_Fc8/edit?usp=drivesdk

Would you do this tonight and share on social media etc ...

I think the derail thread is in fact a clear indication of why so many MRAs have hopped on the TRA agenda.

If you refuse to recognise that men as a sex class oppress women as a sex class then of course men are blameless and somehow women (who all just happen to be the same sex) are more likely to be lower paid, more likely in a heterosexual relationship to be the one who suffers domestic violence, more likely to do the child care, etc., etc., etc..

I dont think we should have to list the ways in which women are discriminated against (and worse) but ask why men, who have in common their sex, treat women so badly.

To expect women to defend standing up against sex discrimination, is as bad as asking people from BAME communities why they cant just accept we are all human. When of course the real question is why do so many BAME people experience racism from white people.

The derail is pretending that in society their is a hierarchy, and that is patriarchal.

So the real question is why anyone would expect women not to fight back against their oppression, which they are not the cause of, and not question why the oppressing group does not change.

No amount of identifying means you escape being part of an oppressing group, whether because you are male or white or both.

ooops! angry tying error:

"The derail is pretending that in society their is a hierarchy, and that is patriarchal."

The derail is pretending that in society there is NO hierarchy that is patriarchal.

@MiladyRenata

Well the reproductive role in itself is biology. But pretty much everything else about being a man and being a woman is a social construct. Why must we be a certain way (tough and stoical, or kind and gentle) because of our biology?

Why must we be a certain way (tough and stoical, or kind and gentle) because of our biology?

Erm, this is the stereotypes. And yes, breaking these down is fantastic, please carry on with this!

But said stereotypes, have no bearing on sex. Which is biological reality.

If 'gender' and 'sex' are one and the same, then yeah, lets rid all legislation of the word gender, as sex is more concrete in its meaning. Lets stop trying to sneak in 'and gender' whenever sex is metioned. Afterall, if they are the same, then there is no need at all for mentioing gender at all right?! I agree, lets stop trying to shoehorn 'gender' everywhere where we mean SEX.

Well the reproductive role in itself is biology. But pretty much everything else about being a man and being a woman is a social construct.

That "reproductive role" gets brushed off fairly abruptly. I mean, I spent more than three years of my adult life pregnant, many many months bleeding, breastfeeding for many more years, but yeah, that pesky reproductive role is mere biology. Meh.

You have NO IDEA

I have written to my MP as well. Kept it fairly short and included a personal anecdote! Thank you for flagging it up OP!

Brilliant thread. Thank you.

Yup, done it. My MP is usually reliable on this.

“Do you really want to live in a chromosomally determined caste system?
We already do”

Had to requote this, it is fab. 😀

I can't buy into the idea of treating people differently, and giving some people extra rights, because of their chromosomes.

I forgot ... this is Ayn Rand isn’t it? That wonderful idyll that forgets about misogyny and well, women having the babies.

I think it is Time to understand that hand waving millennia of oppression and women being considered property can’t and won’t heal the effects of that oppression. Acting like it is still not happening never rights those inequities.

We have had this discussion before and you have heard women tell you it is still happening. Magic thinking doesn’t change it. Rights set up to protect the mistreatment agains women goes part of the way.

But, sure, stick to magic thinking.

And bumping in case others can quickly get in touch with their MP.

Bit late to this party, but my equal pay claim was definitely sex-based.

A few years ago (but embarrassingly recently given the equal pay act went through in the 70s) the company I worked for found their own pay audit showing a systematic gap between men and women.

This turned out to be cock-up rather than conspiracy. They hadn't decided to pay us women less because they thought our heads were filled with pink sparkles. It was a toxic combination of long pay scales, performance pay and nominal performance markings during maternity leave, which meant that after, say, 10 years in the job, a man and woman doing the same job to the same standard could be on different salaries because he'd had more opportunities than the woman to get performance-based pay increments.

We had to threaten court, with the support of our trade union (was eventually settled via ACAS). The sums of money were quite significant - I got about 2K a year pay rise, plus a lump sum (possibly not as much compensation as I was actually due - but we collectively decided we'd take a fairer pay deal going forward for all the women in the firm, rather than bigger compensation as individuals).

So yes, please support this motion.

(Am tickled by the absurd idea that wanting the same pay as the man next to me is evidence of my female supremacist tendencies...)

[chromosomes]...the definition of "sex" mooted by some posters here

I do love the implication that the definition above is new and controversial, as opposed to the one always used and understood, but suddenly problematic because a very small and specific group of people have decided it makes them sad.

let's remove all references to gender in law, policies and practice because sex has a distinct meaning as referring to a person's membership of a reproductive sex class while gender has a primary meaning of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex in any given society. And a secondary meaning of being a euphemism for sex for the prudish.

Using a word whose meaning hasn't changed in centuries instead of one that isn't even stable across the globe or ages makes for much easier statutory writing, too.

This is so important. Simple, inclusive. We all have a sex. Gender, not so much. Brilliant Charley

Oh @Milady I hope you come back again. In the words if Christina Aguilera "You are beautiful no matter what they say" chromosomally determined caste system indeed 😂😂😂

does anyone know if this gets voted on/passed/not passed today or does that happen at later date?
I'm intrigued at Stella Creasy's involvement - do we know if Maya has been properly involved? and hope that nothing has been sneaked in with the wording that will be damaging to women.

“Do you really want to live in a chromosomally determined caste system?*

*We already do.”

Somebody, please make a meme! This is classic!

@teawamutu

[chromosomes]...the definition of "sex" mooted by some posters here

I do love the implication that the definition above is new and controversial, as opposed to the one always used and understood, but suddenly problematic because a very small and specific group of people have decided it makes them sad.

Yes!

This is the bit i dont get

And when people blether on about toilets as if the norm in this country has never been Seperation based on sex (Or biology)

And when people blether on about toilets as if the norm in this country has never been Seperation based on sex (Or biology)

Not only in this country all over the world. I don't know of any country where it's not the norm. (Oh except maybe Canada and USA, but that only recently)

@Malahaha

And when people blether on about toilets as if the norm in this country has never been Seperation based on sex (Or biology)

Not only in this country all over the world. I don't know of any country where it's not the norm. (Oh except maybe Canada and USA, but that only recently)

Yeah i agree

I can’t actually think of a country but some smartarse will probably turn up and tell me there is one...as if they think its a gotcha😀

@Malahaha its perfect, it needs to go on a t-shirt.

I'm intrigued at Stella Creasy's involvement - do we know if Maya has been properly involved? and hope that nothing has been sneaked in with the wording that will be damaging to women.

This makes me very sad. Stella was a brilliant hard-working MP when she started out. She really worked hard, and did good work eg on regulating payday loans and promoting credit unions. But now it seems she's toeing the misogynist line.

Makes me all the more impressed by Rosie Duffield.

[quote DrDavidBanner]**@Malahaha its perfect, it needs to go on a t-shirt. [/quote]
Standing for Women will duly be informed!

Do you really want to live in a chromosomally determined caste system?

Sadly, if I remember correctly, this poster believes that if they believe they live in a world that represents pure equality between everyone, the world will miraculously catch up somehow to start reflecting this surreality. It is why they cannot acknowledge that women's oppression is still ongoing and that women having rights to protect them are needed. In their idyll, biology does not matter because market forces are also idealistic and no adverse effect happens during pregnancy and child rearing or something like that.

I think that it has also been applied to their scientific thinking. That science just has to catch up with the ideal. And no evidence to the contrary is relevant at all, eventually the science will prove their beliefs.

If only we women could magically believe our way out of our workplace discrimination as easily as this level of denial, we would not need to measure pay gaps.

It's not just the pay gap winesalot. It's the fact that a girl has to navigate though a minefield of gropings, sexual innuendoes, harassments and actual attacks, fend them off as much as she may or. perhaps, give in to them; on other parts of the world, foetuses killed because of their sex; girl children married off to men in their 40s, sold into prostitution -- I could go on. Yes, but we should inform these girls that sex is only a construct and their biology is really just an irrelevant detail.

It's not just the pay gap winesalot Exactly.

Yes, but we should inform these girls that sex is only a construct and their biology is really just an irrelevant detail. Ludicrous isn't it? Maybe people who supposedly put so much thinking into these ridiculous assertions should actually go further and understand just who benefits from this..... Or will it too be magically fixed. Just with a wave of a hand....

It is why they cannot acknowledge that women's oppression is still ongoing and that women having rights to protect them are needed.

I think there's more horses and less zebras behind that challenge to be honest.

If women have sex based rights, then male born people cannot be women. Hence sex based rights and sex and biology and lived experience of oppression and the reality of legal disadvantage and every other impediment must be vanished. It's that simple really.

Female people just need to stop existing and suffering in ways that rain on other people's parades.