Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

PopsicleHustler - thank you for your lovely post.

Generally I fully agree with you, we all have our own ways of meeting and greeting other people. It's a cultural thing.

(And our culture is slowly changing thanks to covid-19- i don't like shaking people's hands... so I am very happy with this!)
I don't think this man would have had any problems going about his business quietly as a Muslim.

But he wants to be a German citizen, and as such, he should embrace the cultural norm and shake this particular women's hand as per German culture.

@Coyoacan

It is interesting to see how despite several Muslim women here saying that they also do not like to shake hands with men, people insist on seeing this as discrimination against women.

Um that's simply discrimination against men.

This man specifically said he does not shake hands with women. He tried to weasel his way out of it by claiming he would not shake hands with men either.

He wants to be a German citizen- in most societies where shaking hands is the norm refusing to do so is a huge insult.

Quite agree but this man was being robbed of nothing and nobody is harming him or sanctioning him. He is not entitled to German citizenship. He remains at his status quo

Refusing citizenship is quite clearly a sanction. Would you be happy for GC to not be allowed citizenship in a country that saw gender ideology as core to their values?

(I don't have a firm view on this man's case, btw- I think it raises interesting issues).

@NonnyMouse1337

Or we could just get rid of the citizenship process altogether and have a simplified system of self-declaration where you state 'I am now a citizen of __' if it's too traumatic and demeaning for some people to shake hands?

Yes, what could possibly go wrong? It works so well in other areas.

😂

Would you be happy for GC to not be allowed citizenship in a country that saw gender ideology as core to their values?

That doesn't make sense. Why would "GC" want citizenship of such a country?

PopsicleHustler that’s a lovely post, and I myself was married into the faith for over 20 years. But you are fundamentally missing the point. The fact that women are “pearls” the fact that men were told “to be good to them” the fact that they need a “dowry” to purchase them essentially is completely against Western beliefs of true equality. Men ANDA women should be good to each other, one should not pay for the other in matrimony, none should be treated as pearls as one is not responsible for the other.

Muslim culture as I experienced it is respectful, kind, generous and altogether good. But it is absolutely non feminist and there is an unequal bias towards men being the leading being. However kind and respectful they may be to their women, and however free their women may be. They are still their women and that’s wrong.

@nearertonature

Quite agree but this man was being robbed of nothing and nobody is harming him or sanctioning him. He is not entitled to German citizenship. He remains at his status quo

Refusing citizenship is quite clearly a sanction. Would you be happy for GC to not be allowed citizenship in a country that saw gender ideology as core to their values?

(I don't have a firm view on this man's case, btw- I think it raises interesting issues).

I'm afraid, it is not a sanction:

Here are the requirements for becoming a German citizen (taken from the German Ministry of the Interior and translated)

Link here: www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/verfassung/staatsangehoerigkeit/einbuergerung/einbuergerung-node.html

• Indefinite Leave to remain at the time of naturalisation
• Clarified nationality and identity
• Commitment to the German constitution and its values
• Giving up the existing citizenship **
• verbal and written knowledge of German to B1 standard of the European reference frame for languages
• Proof of knowledge of the legal and social order as well as living conditions in Germany (Citizenship test)
• Ability to provide for oneself and all dependants
• Guarantee to integrate to German living conditions and customs, especially no simultaneous marriage to several spouses
• No criminal conviction

** This is not the case for EU countries or if you applied for and have been granted exemption

This man seems unwilling to accept the German custom of shaking hands and has, therefore, not met all requirements for attaining citizenship. It is his prerogative to not shake hands but he'll have to live with the consequences.
Over here it would probably be the same if you either didn't attend your ceremony or refused to swear either the oath of allegiance or the oath of affirmation.

Sorry for the rough translation, but I am doing this in my lunch break which is almost over.

it happened to me just recently ...

the Director of a College I was visiting in Glasgow politely refused to shake my hand whilst explaining it was for religious reasons...

I was surprised that such things were still happening, but there you go.

I've read elsewhere that there was a bit more to it than the handshake. It raised other questions about his attitudes that left them to conclude overall that he held views incompatible with German culture.

Seeing it discussed here did make me wonder what this board's reaction would have been had it been a Muslim woman declining a handshake with a male official. I wonder if the outcome would have even been the same, or whether the authorities would have quickly found a female official to shake hands, and that would have been it, no story. Maybe this isn't a feminist issue at all, but a case of discrimination against a man....

That doesn't make sense. Why would "GC" want citizenship of such a country?

Sigh. Talk about deliberately missing the point...

He must have been there for a very, very long time. He presumably had a home, as well as work and relationships, as well as all his expectations for his whole future. To suddenly have all that removed is traumatic.

You do know he was only denied citizenship? He can continue to live and work without citizenship. That's what he has been doing for years.

@pinkhousesarebest

I think it ends where it ended in France for the teacher on Friday afternoon. When’s you refuse to accept the values of your prospective country. Good on Germany to have the balls to do this. Inevitably this man will be happier elsewhere in a country with the same priorities as him.

Yes, the apologists for this man should read the coverage of the French case over the weekend - that is what happens when people do not accept the enlightenment values of Europe.

When you do the citizenship test in Germany a lot of the questions (they are all available online, you only do 30 of them on the actual test and 3 for the state you live in out of a possible 10 questions) a lot of them are obviously designed to screen out cultural/religious attitudes to this type of sexism.

For eg one of them is if your daughter comes home with a boyfriend of a different religion and you don't approve, one of the actions suggested as a possible answer is "lock her in the house until she agrees to end the relationship". Which is obviously not acceptable in Germany, but some cultures might think that is ok.

I didn't do the language course, but I've heard that the courses also emphasise German cultural expectations. One of which is that handshaking is deeply entrenched here. When I was a teenager in the late 70s/early 80s it was normal when i was introduced to new people the same age as me (eg when we went ice-skating in a group) everyone shook hands. And often shook hands on meeting and leaving. There's something of a discussion going on about how odd it is these days that nobody shakes hands and what a good substitute might be.

If anyone applying for citizenship got that far and then didn't shake hands with the (very powerful, in that respect) civil servant (who all think they are a higher class here anyway) giving them the certificate for the reason giving: more fool them. At least he's probably only a few hundred euros out of pocket.

@Coyoacan

It is interesting to see how despite several Muslim women here saying that they also do not like to shake hands with men, people insist on seeing this as discrimination against women.

No @Coyoacan, we are all saying that we would regard this as an insult whether it was a man or a woman who refused; whether it was a muslim, an Orthodox Jew, a Scientologist or even an intel - belief in the inherent difference of value between a woman and a man underlines all of this and that is what is so anti feminist.

There are so many projections and set ideas on this thread. Islam prones strict separation between the sexes and not touching is 100% a religious thing, although many Muslims don't apply it. It is absurd to suggest that the man sees women has 'lesser' based on that (he might but I don't know, I haven't asked him). There are probably plenty of German citizens who apply this, men and women, Muslims or not (religious Jews also avoid physical contact between sexes). It isn't personal, the man probably wouldn't shake hands with his sister-in-law or female cousins either. I don't have an issue with this, I don't see why this wouldn't be incompatible with German 'values', and I don't think anyone shouldn't be forced into physical contact they don't want. I have had seen men refuse to shake hands a few times and they will usually bow their head instead as a sign of respect and to avoid being awkward.
Also, I find the idea of "honour killing" very problematic. We live in a country where several women are killed every week by a partner or ex-partner, often because they want to leave or have started a new relationship. This number has increased in recent years. Why are only "brown" men capable of honour killing? What do we call a white man killing his ex-wife because he doesn't want her to sleep with another man?

Thank you to those of Muslim faith who have explained your reasons for not hand shaking. It's interesting.

But the bottom line is Germany has very strict anti-discrimination laws. So "i'm not shaking a woman's hand" would mean he hadn't been paying attention to what he was signing up to. Presumably he has an active brain - he could have made the hand over heart gesture and that would have been enough without making a point about not shaking hands with a woman (but presumably would have done so with a man).

It really is difficult to explain the cultural significance here of hand shaking (although thanks to pp who have done so, too).

I think many of you would find that many muslim women (myself included) also do not shake hands with men, it is not just men not shaking hands with women, I always put my hand on my chest with respect and greet politely if I feel the other person is taken aback or offended i will explain that it is a personal choice due to my beliefs

I like this thing though, and may adopt it in place of handshaking in future. But again - not shaking hands with a particular gender because of religion isn't acceptable in a disestablished country (although the church is involved in an awful lot of things, crosses in some classrooms and hospital rooms etc) with strict anti-discrimination laws.

PPs question about orthodox Jewish men and German citizenship is interesting and I'm probably going to try to find out about that at some point because it would seem discriminatory to give it to them and not to this chap. On the other hand, if they are Jewish of German descent and had citizenship stripped by the government back in the 30s/40s they are entitled to have it given back if they want it without too much fuss at all.

@Cam77

More I think about it, more I’d say it’s a cheap shot. Handshaking wasn’t part of the test - which he’d already passed. If handshaking is an integral part of what it means to be a German citizen then build it into the test next time. He passed the test then they changed the result because he did something they don’t like. Well you better get the behaviour police to monitor your new citizens 24/7 to see if they do something “UnGerman”.

Ths guy has lived there for 20+ years. He has studied there, lived a life there, and crucially, speaks the language. There is no way he does not understand the significance of his act. It is an edgy statement from him. Seems to have backfired. I spent about 8 years working for a comapny that had mainly Muslims working there. The men who refused to shake women's hands almost always had an secondary agenda of "know your place but I will hide it in religion". The conservative religious who were not making political statements did not shake hands with anybody out of respect for their non religious female colleagues. Chosing to single out woman is a dick move. It really, really is.

He can have another go if he wants to be a citizen, and shake hands with the welcoming official. It's his choice whether or not to adopt the customs of his adopted country. He needn't renounce his religious beliefs, just tweak his cultural practice.

I had to learn when volunteering abroad recently that it was culturally acceptable for people to keep boldly asking my age (!) and I started to do it, too. Interesting! And I learned that when friends and acquaintance hail you in town and ask where you're going, they don't actually want to know. 😉

I find the idea of "honour killing" very problematic. We live in a country where several women are killed every week by a partner or ex-partner, often because they want to leave or have started a new relationship

Aren’t most honour killings done by fathers/brothers/other related family members?

I think they are very different than intimate partner violence and a very specific pattern of male violence that should be studied and repudiated wherever it is found

Religion does not trump sexual equality.

If he felt it does then maybe Germany is not the right country for him.

As a woman is shit when other people's mysoginism is encouraged and ignored because of what they have decided to believe.

I find the idea of "honour killing" very problematic. We live in a country where several women are killed every week by a partner or ex-partner, often because they want to leave or have started a new relationship

they generally don't call it an honour killing though - and they're not the same since it's about the ex-partner being jealous and not the brother/dad/uncle thinking that a woman having bodily autonomy, sexual freedom and equality will bring dishonour onto their heads.

I support that decision. I wouldn't want that doctor having anything at all to do with my family's health , he sounds like a bigot.

I had an incident here by an Asian male doctor - most definitely brought up here and studied medicine here - British Asian GP. I would say Hindu (surname like a Jayesh/Nilesh Patel but not that name). Anyway I had an issue of a lump of some sort in my arm pit and it required an examination so I thought he would just call in like a receptionist or something to stand in room while he examined but he said as it might mean examining around my breast area he would like me to book in with a female GP - what a waste of a flipping appointment and my time!

The handshake itself is just a ‘tip of the iceberg’ situation.
What other German cultural norms does this man reject? How can he really be a comfortable fit with the majority of his German compatriots if he considers himself separate and apart from them? How can he really integrate? This is the problem with multiculturalism, you either have an expectation that people accept the common aspects of a country’s culture and integrate, which will help them make friends and lead a happy life there, or you don’t and let them carry on with all the customs and norms of their country of birth, even though they badly clash, and they make few friends outside their old cultural bubble, don’t integrate, don’t get on, and they become ghettoised, isolated and potentially resentful. There has to be a certain expectation of ‘when in Rome’, or you’re going to create a granular, fragmented society with little cohesion, riven with suspicion, grievance, and a lack of fellow feeling.
There seems to be this rather fluffy idea that you can embrace all comers, then we’ll all stand around holding hands in an ‘I want to teach the world to sing’ sort of way, but human nature doesn’t work like that, especially when someone refuses the hand-holding, let alone the singing.

@PopsicleHustler
Fabulous answer. As a white, non-religious women, with limited knowledge on this, I found that really interesting to read. Thank you.