Joe Biden issues new statement on the transgender debate

[ripx4nutmeg]

In a Q&A he said he'll reverse all 'anti trans' executive orders if he becomes president. He revealed again that he doesn't really know anything about the trans debate but implied he will still give campaigners everything they want twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1316913590620852224?s=20

I don't understand how someone can paint Corbyn as racist and Boris as nice and normal.

www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-record-sexist-homophobic-and-racist-comments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

Boris outright racism is well known, and was well known at the election also.

I am FAR from a Corbyn fan (as posts will back up), but that post was..not representative of the truth at all. Its actually a bit odd that that argument was made tbh.

Corbyn/Boris was to most Americans I speak to..when compared to the American elections, a choice between left or far left. Biden V Trump, both would realistically be classed as far right here apparently. I know not much about American politics, I tend to defer to people who do know about it. I have read this thread with interest. But cannot really not post when its being made out Corbyn was some big bad nasty and Boris is all benign and smiles.

I can see that this thread shows that Brexit and the Tump issue are really not comparable and I think that can cause false analogy. However, I can recognize similar anger between sides and that is painful, I get that. Like some posters, I have family who voted for Trump. Just because I love them doesn't mean their vote didn't legitimatize policies that hurt poor people, Black people, Native people refugees at our borders. Additionally, half of those groups are women, yet unlike some PP assertions, there is no evidence people of color in the US are voting in larger blocks for Trump. Post our election, I will be happy to revisit this theory if I'm proved wrong.

But this is a very important fact: the main reason the Democratic primary veered to Biden (he was behind in the polls) was due the Black primary voters in S Carolina who voted almost overwhelmingly for Biden and this made a shift in the Democrats who dropped their 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc choices to vote Joe on Super Tuesday (our big primary Election Day). Biden was my 5th choice, but, like everyone else, I saw the way the wind was blowing that day and pulled my lever for him because that was the best strategy. Black people in this country led that shift. I know Democrats have better economic policies that will help those in poverty so in no way do I see my votes hurting low income folks in the Rust Belt or elsewhere...there is no evidence Trump has improved the lives of poor white people in this country.

I'd like to clarify again that the Whitmer kidnapper plotters are not leftist. I'm citing the AP, made up of thousands of local reporters around the world for those who (often rightly) trust local news. Our Michigan bureau FBI confirm they are not leftist. They are influenced by white supremacy and the so-called boogaloo movement and some from this group were on the steps of the Michigan capital months ago, holding weapons of war, threatening our democratic government.

apnews.com/article/08a7b6a93ed9e23154a724f376ae0a3c

apnews.com/article/46e0a8b30dd62d82f2a9845d2f5bea38

@Floisme

Delphinium20 I don't know US politics as well as you. All I know is that when I hear you talk about Trump voters it reminds me of how so many remain voters talked about Brexit voters.

I'm sure the "us vs them" is still raw after Brexit. I feel it in me and I see it in people I used to be able to disagree with...many people have lost friendships over this.

I also think classism is different in the UK vs US. @

@Floisme @EdgeOfACoin oops. I hit send too soon. I was going to tag you both and say US divides over politics do seem to pull on cultural differences as a way to argue why we vote the way we do. I'm guilty of this and I'm sure my anger with some historically racist groups spills unfairly over into what could look like classism (not sure how I'd define that nor if I'm guilty of it).

While all cultures can use divides of regions, urban vs rural, and accents and race and even music to show in and out groups, I think the the biggest divide in the US is philosophical and there's an interesting book on it. www.businessinsider.com/the-11-nations-of-the-united-states-2015-7

I'm the product of late arrived middle to lower income Scandinavian immigrants and fall into the Yankeedom part of that group. The Civil War was over by the time my great grandparents got here, yet we are still impacted by it to this day...in one way by the privilege we get by being white.

I think some of that is different in the UK...but not sure. I can be snarky and argue that culturally, Trump falls into a "tacky, rich white celebrity" group and there are all income level people who don't want to be associated with that.

But more realistically, people who like Trump seem to focus loosely on "freedoms." I argue their theory of freedom is poorly defined and lacking accountability and oversight. This is a philosophical difference.

I think the nastiness also comes because of the fear of association with the tacky rich white guy, people who LOOK the same as Trump folks but are opposed to Trump want to say they aren't like him or his followers. As his followers are almost 100% white, leftist white people who don't want to act racist go out of their way to prove they aren't in this group, and it can seem unfair to those in the Trump group. Not sure how this fits into classism, but it's interesting.

I know Democrats have better economic policies that will help those in poverty

What a joke. Clinton years saw massive numbers of factories move to Mexico under NAFTA (then onward to China). No one after them did a damn thing about it either, Repub or Dem.

That’s on them.

You forget that TPP was a big issue that Trump campaigned on in 2016. Righting the trade imbalance between the US and China was a big vote getter, because no other prominent politician has been interested in this very key issue, which has disproportionately harmed the Rust Belt (white and black communities both, I should add).

Before COVID, those back home perceived that things were economically better in terms of jobs and 401Ks, which is probably the biggest motivator for them (not that you asked).

there is no evidence Trump has improved the lives of poor white people in this country

Pre-COVID, the unemployment rate hit the lowest point in several decades. Black unemployment too, it should be said. Put paid to the ‘jobless recovery’ bullshit espoused earlier.

I'm sure the "us vs them" is still raw after Brexit. I feel it in me and I see it in people I used to be able to disagree with...many people have lost friendships over this

It’s sad to lose friends over politics. I always felt inspired by the touching friendship between Scalia and RGB (for those familiar with the US Supreme Court). Their families were also really close and vacationed together and really, it would be nice if we could just leave politics at the door sometimes.

Pre-COVID, the unemployment rate hit the lowest point in several decades. Black unemployment too, it should be said. Put paid to the ‘jobless recovery’ bullshit espoused earlier.

But that was the result of the upswing from the recession, brought in by Obama and inherited by Trump. Although, economists do argue that laying blame or gratitude solely on a president is myopic.

www.npr.org/2018/09/12/646708799/fact-check-who-gets-credit-for-the-booming-u-s-economy

@BelleHathor

Excellent point Gingerscallop: But I predicted Trump's win and Brixteer win because of the sense of neglect I felt among left-behind towns. It wasn't all about race and migration. And I say that as a black African who felt humiliation in applying to come and live here with my partner of 15 years, having held a high level professional job in the Netherlands but being treated as a beggar here. The quality of politicians who actually attempt to solve problems has declined dramatically. Conversely by calling the left behind racists, deplorable, uneducated it makes it easier to not actually do anything because you wouldn't want help racists now. RE: The Dems and the African American vote, same way they took the workers in the rust belt for granted, a lot of Black people are questioning voting Dem. They are looking at other communities with better housing, schools, opportunities etc and wondering why after 50 years of voting Dem are their lives not improving. The vote for us or you'll be lynched or as Biden said in 2012 “They’re going to put y’all back in chains.” fear is not working.

This made me think of this article, which I found interesting. McWhorter is talking about the idea that voting for someone means that you are giving a thumbs up to their views, and suggests that this can actually stop people from voting in a way that might be the most pragmatically beneficial for them. Whereas those who don't feel compelled by that idea have the advantage of being able to vote on what the actual effect of the individuals policy will be.

One of the things he mentions is that because the Democrats take the black vote for granted they really only have to pay lip service to those voters - they don't have to do anything concrete as they would if they thought they might actually defect. He suggests that if they were afraid of that they might have put their minds to creating better policies over the years.

democracyjournal.org/magazine/43/race-in-trumps-america/

As Delpiniumium20 rightly says above there are many factors in job growth, but Trump's performance overall (before Covid) was average:
www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2020/02/donald-trump-vs-barack-obama-on-jobs-and-jobs-growth-under-other-presidents.html

The greatest number of job growth under any president was Clinton:
www.thebalance.com/job-creation-by-president-by-number-and-percent-3863218

I have friends ranged along different parts of the political spectrum who voted for Brexit (I very much did not) and I understood that they did it for a variety of reasons: business owners worried about red tape; wanting to return to a simpler time; a protest vote; concerns about farmers and fisherman, anti-globalists.... Most regret it or just don't speak about it (and I don't raise it.) They weren't trade experts so how could they know how it would turn out?

But after four years of Trump - people know what they are voting for and for my friend who is a disability activist , for example, that is understandably an absolute dealbreaker in terms of friendships. And I suppose it's hard to come back from having someone shout 'Lock her up' about you to then go on holiday together.

I don't think I'd say that nearly 100% of Trumps voters are white, 29% of the Hispanic vote went to him.

Though I think arguing who got the black vote or female vote is a pretty secondary issue. Everyone here knows Trumps limitations, and I don't think anyone is actually a Trump supporter. Most are making pragmatic arguments about the benefits and problems of another Trump administration vs a Biden one, which is hardly the same thing.

But I don't know that I've seen more than about three attempts to engage with the actual arguments being made about that. Like why would many Americans who have been utterly betrayed by continuously voting for Democrats continue to do so? Can you really argue they are making an economic error when the Democrats have carried on with Reaganism? What are the long term prospects the Democrats are offering? Not what they say, what they actually will do.

I don't mean to be rude, Goosefoot, but I'm afraid I don't understand what you are asking.

Are you saying that black or women voters should not worry about losing their health care, ignore the racist and misogynistic dog whistles, endure the daily chaos and the poor handling of the pandemic for the pragmatic gains of.....what? An average job growth? A tax cut?

And is it your thinking that you know better what is right for the black community than they do themselves? That, say, civil rights heroes like John Lewis and Elijah Cummings who served as Democrats were just Reagan-lite? There are Democratic plans to help people and if you are interested, it's not hard to research them.

Here's just one: www.forbes.com/sites/wesleywhistle/2020/10/15/report-joe-bidens-free-college-plan-would-pay-for-itself/#3cfecdd87d5b

But politics isn't magic and a weakness overall of the American system is that because it involves getting things through the House and Senate there is a lot of compromise. Obama could write a book about it. Wait, I think he did.

Like why would many Americans who have been utterly betrayed by continuously voting for Democrats continue to do so?

But I don't think they feel that their option is the GOP or Trump. People who feel let down by the Democrats are far more likely to have primaried Bernie Sanders, who now has sided w/ Biden. My own political ideology falls into the Elizabeth Warren camp (minus the insanity of her trans ideology), but I actually campaigned for Amy Klobuchar because I thought she'd be a woman who was moderate enough to beat Trump, plus she's younger, sensible, smart and experienced.

@Iminthewrongstory agree completely. Nothing more paternalistic than white people telling Black people that their voting habits aren't good for them.

Everyone tells everyone else their voting habits arent good for them, fgs.
We're all doing it on this thread, its the basis of every political debate ever!

@7Days

Everyone tells everyone else their voting habits arent good for them, fgs. We're all doing it on this thread, its the basis of every political debate ever!

That's making me laugh out loud.

Touché.

But seriously, white Americans telling Black Americans how to vote is bad no matter the party.

Loved that article Goosefoot especially this paragraph: "In this elevation of racist sentiment as a quintessential deal-breaker, there is a degree of what can only be termed a religious approach in many of today’s thinking Americans. As I have argued elsewhere, antiracism has come to parallel Christian faith in many ways. That faith—as we saw with, in fact, the Faith-Based Initiatives—has its downsides, and these Trump voters of color would seem to have rejected it. Trump hardly offered what anyone would call a platform for black America, but his call for “law and order,” and claims that he would create jobs for less educated people, struck these people as more important than anything the punditocracy said about him. It would be hard to say that these black and Latino people themselves “sanction” bigotry against their own people. Rather, they voted on the basis of the “change” Trump offered."
From the Black forums that I post on there is a massive divide between Black women and men this year. Black women are mostly Biden whereas a sizeable amount of the Black men are leaning towards not voting or Trump due to Biden being responsible for the Crime Bill which led to the mass incarceration of Black men. Also prison reform and the economy.

blavity.com/amp/trumps-strategy-to-win-over-black-men-is-working-heres-how-democrats-need-to-fight-back?category1=opinion&category2=politics

I don't agree, you're basically saying don't discuss politics with someone you may disagree with on the grounds of race.

Well. Actually. I do agree. Don't discuss politics with someone you disagree with. Regardless of race. Less unpleasantness all round.

@Delphinium20

But seriously, white Americans telling Black Americans how to vote is bad no matter the party.

Like this (Sorry I couldn't resist open goal and all that) 😅😆! m.youtube.com/watch?v=iuxJVy5Pedw

@7Days

I don't agree, you're basically saying don't discuss politics with someone you may disagree with on the grounds of race.

Well. Actually. I do agree. Don't discuss politics with someone you disagree with. Regardless of race. Less unpleasantness all round.

No. I'm saying that considering race relations in the United States, as a white person, I find it rude to tell the 98% of black women who voted for Trump that they don't know their own best interests. Just because I ALSO voted for Clinton and will vote Biden, if most Black women were voting for Trump (which is the most impossible thing ever), I wouldn't go on and on about how wrong they are. It's the same reason I don't appreciate white men telling me I'm voting wrong...they can't possibly know better than I do about my own oppression.

Let's all reconvene in 2 weeks and see that the exit polls tell us.

*what

2 weeks sounds good. Look forward to it. I've already told my family in America to do so, but if you have the chance stock up on some supplies (dry foods, tinned goods etc). The current atmosphere is febrile and regardless of the results there are likely to be riots 💐

Everyone votes for the person they think is most likely to improve things according to their own set of priorities. So I don’t understand why so many people (including posters on this thread) think insults is are the best way to win people over. All that achieves is what happened in the last uk election - voters for one party (Tories) keep quiet about their intentions and the other party are shocked when they don’t win.

@Iminthewrongstory

I don't mean to be rude, Goosefoot, but I'm afraid I don't understand what you are asking.

Are you saying that black or women voters should not worry about losing their health care, ignore the racist and misogynistic dog whistles, endure the daily chaos and the poor handling of the pandemic for the pragmatic gains of.....what? An average job growth? A tax cut?

And is it your thinking that you know better what is right for the black community than they do themselves? That, say, civil rights heroes like John Lewis and Elijah Cummings who served as Democrats were just Reagan-lite? There are Democratic plans to help people and if you are interested, it's not hard to research them.

Here's just one: www.forbes.com/sites/wesleywhistle/2020/10/15/report-joe-bidens-free-college-plan-would-pay-for-itself/#3cfecdd87d5b

But politics isn't magic and a weakness overall of the American system is that because it involves getting things through the House and Senate there is a lot of compromise. Obama could write a book about it. Wait, I think he did.

I don't think I said anything very similar to those things, so I'm not sure what's made you suggest them, or what you are finding confusing.

BelleHathor was suggesting that when a group is taken for granted by a party as voting for them it can mean they stop really looking out for the interests of that group, which made me think of the McWhorter article which touched on some similar thoughts. It resonates somewhat with a larger these in this discussion which is about how much weight to put on the ideology or personal opinions of candidates, as opposed to what you think the pragmatic outcomes of their policy might be.

The Democrats have continues on with the Reagan paradigm of globalism, loosening market regulations, free trade, and everything associated with those. Which has been very bad for the very same sector of society that used to be reliable Democrat voters and no longer are (the other being Catholics.) Why anyone is surprised the former group didn't keep on voting for them I don't know.

@Delphinium20

Like why would many Americans who have been utterly betrayed by continuously voting for Democrats continue to do so?

But I don't think they feel that their option is the GOP or Trump. People who feel let down by the Democrats are far more likely to have primaried Bernie Sanders, who now has sided w/ Biden. My own political ideology falls into the Elizabeth Warren camp (minus the insanity of her trans ideology), but I actually campaigned for Amy Klobuchar because I thought she'd be a woman who was moderate enough to beat Trump, plus she's younger, sensible, smart and experienced.

@Iminthewrongstory agree completely. Nothing more paternalistic than white people telling Black people that their voting habits aren't good for them.

The polling on the last election suggested that had Trump run against sanders, he would have lost, because Sanders had a lot of appeal for the voters who lost Clinton the election.

But they wouldn't vote for Clinton. With they vote for Biden - maybe, it's a lot more likely than Clinton even without considering that they may well have been put off by the Trump administration. A lot of them felt very let down by Obama and how he dealt with unions though and Biden may carry that baggage with him to some extent.

In a lot of cases in the last decade or so it seems like they have preferred outsider candidates, whatever their leanings, and Obama used that to his advantage. I'm not sure how the Clinton team missed that, they actually played up her establishment credentials. I'm not sure how that will help Biden either - I know many feel it might win over more traditional Republican voters. But will it will over the rust belt workers - I'm not so sure about that.