Joe Biden issues new statement on the transgender debate

[ripx4nutmeg]

In a Q&A he said he'll reverse all 'anti trans' executive orders if he becomes president. He revealed again that he doesn't really know anything about the trans debate but implied he will still give campaigners everything they want twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1316913590620852224?s=20

@Floisme

As for the left-behind northern towns - a major reason why they voted Conservative was the attitude of remainers (of whom I am one) to them after the Brexit vote. The moral being that it's not a great idea to call people stupid and racist when you need them to vote with you.

Definitely 👍. Trump retweeted the guy working 2 jobs in the video I posted above saying "Thank you, I will never let you down!" and Trumps supporters were like welcome brother, love you etc vs the you are a sellout. It's all in the way people are spoken to and whether they feel listened to.

@DidoLamenting

In the time I've been on MN I think there has been a move away from the left, but I always felt that much of the very right on lefty posting was inauthentic and touched on virtue signalling. No one in real life would ever know you were secretly a Tory and given the vitriol that used to thrown at Tory supporters it's not surprising they kept quiet.

Then along came Corbyn. Corbyn and Momentum gave those who theoretically were still left wing if asked but in reality had already moved away (pension pots and inheritance tax tend to feature more as one gets older) the ideal opportunity to publicly move away from the Labour Party and vote Tory without losing face.

Corbyn and pals also led those who were genuinely still Labour supporters/ moderate left wing to stop and question and think "no, this is not what I want"

The Corbyn supporter position is odd though. I understand why people call them "far left" and Corbyn was in some ways - but then, that's why Corbyn wasn't pro-EU. At the same time, identity politics which Momentum embraced don't really fit in with any kind of leftism, they more properly belong to a certain part of the right. I'm not convinced Corbyn himself really knew what identity politics were about - he adopting the rhetoric but I suspect he understood it through a class lens and didn't really get that it had supplanted that for others. There are certainly people who found Corbyn too far left all round, but I also think there is a group that found him not too far left so much as too big state. They might accept some quite radical leftism if it were community based, bottom up rather than top down, and dropped the ID politics BS.

If you don't think that racism isn't at the heart of why people despise Trump, just look at the numbers. Black people, even those in poor southern states, voted almost exclusively for Democrats despite Black people suffering the highest rates of poverty in those states. Forgive me if I lump all white southerners together, but my god, the good ole boys of the south fought a war to keep black peoples enslaved in the 19th century, they then fought viciously for discrimination of Blacks and against their civil rights in the 20th century and in the 21st century they voted for a party that is almost 100% white and a party that actively gerrymandered districts to disenfranchise black voters. Forgive me if I question the intention of the well-documented white southern voter who, for some reason, votes almost always the exact opposite of their Black neighbors. Why would this be? Does their history of racism have anything to do with it?

There are many, many white people who live all over the US (south and north and coasts and Midwest) who care deeply about ending racism. If you aren't racist, but voted for a man who Federal officials found evidence had refused to rent to Black tenants and lied to Black applicants about whether apartments were available, among other things, you really don't give a shit about Black people in America.

@Floisme

As for the left-behind northern towns - a major reason why they voted Conservative was the attitude of remainers (of whom I am one) to them after the Brexit vote. The moral being that it's not a great idea to call people stupid and racist when you need them to vote with you.

I this this accurately describes the way some feel about left-behind US northern towns (the Rustbelt) that voted for Trump.

Bellehathor and Floisme, you speak the truth. I keep asking myself, other than speaking more and more loudly on Instagrammable issues, what have Dems done for blacks. And I have this idea that left leaning parties are entitled to black or minority votes and so any minority who votes differently is a sell out and responsible for the rise of right wing gifts. I have found that attitude high among white Dems in the US but I also experienced it during Brexit. No I didn't vote in the Brexit vote as am a foreigner and didn't even live here. But I predicted Trump's win and Brixteer win because of the sense of neglect I felt among left-behind towns. It wasn't all about race and migration. And I say that as a black African who felt humiliation in applying to come and live here with my partner of 15 years, having held a high level professional job in the Netherlands but being treated as a beggar here.
If we want to end rise of right wing or racism leaders we need to listen to all disenfranchised and engage in meaningful debate, and even re-examine our long held beliefs against their arguments rather than simply branding them uneducated racists.

Hate this idea not have

Apologies for not having read the whole thread, but for those suggesting that TRA demands will be low priority, the fact that Biden - who is ahead in the polls over here - felt it necessary to make this statement shows who the Democrats are beholden too. We all know there is very big money behind medicalizing children, and California already passed a law this year where convicted criminals can choose their gender identity and staff are compelled to use their pronouns. They can also request to be in a prison for the opposite sex and although that decision will be reviewed (I assume for safety) we all know TRA organizations will sue to hell to get transgender women in women's prisons.

I have more faith in the court cases in the UK. If they are found in favor of not medicalizing children and women's rights then I think the Republicans will finally have some meat to wave around and criticize the TRA point of view. I don't know anyone in the USA personally that supports the medicalizing of children, its the younger generation who have been taught this in schools as a civil rights issue - without any debate or serious examination of claims -who support it.

I imagine this statement by Biden is aimed at the youngest voters.

@Delphinium20

If you don't think that racism isn't at the heart of why people despise Trump, just look at the numbers. Black people, even those in poor southern states, voted almost exclusively for Democrats despite Black people suffering the highest rates of poverty in those states. Forgive me if I lump all white southerners together, but my god, the good ole boys of the south fought a war to keep black peoples enslaved in the 19th century, they then fought viciously for discrimination of Blacks and against their civil rights in the 20th century and in the 21st century they voted for a party that is almost 100% white and a party that actively gerrymandered districts to disenfranchise black voters. Forgive me if I question the intention of the well-documented white southern voter who, for some reason, votes almost always the exact opposite of their Black neighbors. Why would this be? Does their history of racism have anything to do with it?

There are many, many white people who live all over the US (south and north and coasts and Midwest) who care deeply about ending racism. If you aren't racist, but voted for a man who Federal officials found evidence had refused to rent to Black tenants and lied to Black applicants about whether apartments were available, among other things, you really don't give a shit about Black people in America.

I think that lots of people think Trump is a racist and didn't vote for him for that reason. On the other hand, all of the polling etc around Trump voters says that it was a small minority that voted for him for those reasons (I want to say 5% or something like that.)

I think in general you can't make the leap that because a person cares about something, they will always vote on that issue. Sometimes even if it's really important to them. Very often the choices all seem at odds with something very important, and many people have immediate needs or concerns and vote in the way that seems most relevant in terms of how they understand the cause and remedy for that specific need.

Across the political spectrum I've noticed that when people vote against a candidate who seems to represent some sort of evil or bad thing to them, they assume that those who vote for them don't care about that same principle, but I just don't think that's an accurate assessment of how people vote or how the psychology of it works.

Delphinium20 I don't know US politics as well as you. All I know is that when I hear you talk about Trump voters it reminds me of how so many remain voters talked about Brexit voters.

It's a strange parallel universe in here where you can look at Trump setting his terrorists back on Gretchen Whitmer and think 'yes, he gets my sane, adult and considered vote'

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/trump-whitmer-michigan-militia-election-rally-b1114257.html

well i've just lost the first half of my morning to you fascinating women

This resonates with me because I think UK voters faced a very similar dilemma at the UK GE.

I had previously spoiled my vote at various ballots, but felt that the GE was too important for that. After a great deal of soul searching I voted conservative. I am a labour party member. But believe it or not I genuinely felt that the outcomes for marginalised people in the UK would be better under a conservative government than under a corbyn led labour one.

I've had cause to agonise over my decision many times since then. sometimes I think I was right, sometimes wrong.

But I blame the Labour party's complete dereliction of duty, of their founding principles for putting me in that position.

And equally, the people here saying things like Anyone who supports Trump is insane or deeply racist are just showing how Trump and the current god awful UK Tory administration gain power: by showing at least a passing familiarity with actual reality as lived by most people

You don’t seem to care about the actual reasons why someone would vote Trump. I have a whole family of them, and could tell you why if you even cared to know.

But you’d rather paint them as racist and throw out stereotypes of Southerners (and hey! My ancestors actually risked their lived to fight against slavery, since you brought it up).

Why would northern Democratic strongholds like MI, PA, WI, OH vote for Obama for both terms and then Trump? Must be racism 🙄

Or maybe there’s some other reason you are overlooking? Nah, can’t be. They just suddenly became racist in just four years ....

[quote DameFanny]It's a strange parallel universe in here where you can look at Trump setting his terrorists back on Gretchen Whitmer and think 'yes, he gets my sane, adult and considered vote'

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/trump-whitmer-michigan-militia-election-rally-b1114257.html[/quote]
One of the initial men arrested went on anti-Trump rants so don’t think this is correct.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.detroitnews.com/amp/5940296002

Another went to BLM rally to agitate against police violence. You can read an actual quote from the guy (Daniel Joseph Harris) here:

oaklandcounty115.com/2020/06/08/lake-orion-protest-affirms-black-lives-matter-movement/

Imo this is the horseshoe theory in action, where you get anti-government types from both ends wanting to cause trouble

Excellent point Gingerscallop: But I predicted Trump's win and Brixteer win because of the sense of neglect I felt among left-behind towns. It wasn't all about race and migration. And I say that as a black African who felt humiliation in applying to come and live here with my partner of 15 years, having held a high level professional job in the Netherlands but being treated as a beggar here.
The quality of politicians who actually attempt to solve problems has declined dramatically. Conversely by calling the left behind racists, deplorable, uneducated it makes it easier to not actually do anything because you wouldn't want help racists now.
RE: The Dems and the African American vote, same way they took the workers in the rust belt for granted, a lot of Black people are questioning voting Dem. They are looking at other communities with better housing, schools, opportunities etc and wondering why after 50 years of voting Dem are their lives not improving.
The vote for us or you'll be lynched or as Biden said in 2012 “They’re going to put y’all back in chains.” fear is not working.

I look at Trump's record on Women's Rights. After all, he's been in power for 4 years so what has he done to help women? How has he calmed the Trans debate?

I don't see much evidence of either. I do recall his behaviour over abortion rights.

Has Trump been asked about his plans for women and the trans community?

It is not what he will do for women’s rights (which I expect will be precisely zero), it is also what he might do against women’s rights. We do not know much about his stance on trans. But we do know Biden’s and by redefining ‘woman’ Biden will destroy them.

You honestly believe the Militia is anti fascist @UsedUpUsername? Or that one of them attended at BLM rally in good faith?

How do you feel about Trump calling for Whitmer to be locked up? What crimes is she supposed to have committed?

@Aesopfable

It is not what he will do for women’s rights (which I expect will be precisely zero), it is also what he might do against women’s rights. We do not know much about his stance on trans. But we do know Biden’s and by redefining ‘woman’ Biden will destroy them.

This is just one example of the many bad faith arguments made throughout this thread. They're no fooling anyone.

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It's pretty clear that there is a group of people here on this board that is so obsessively focused on one issue, that they're willing to overlook everything else. I'd compare them to our white Christian evangelicals, ironically enough. American evangelicals continue to vote for the most despicable and un-Christian president ever because it's the only path they see to get abortion rights eliminated. Hypocrisy aside, they have a goal in mind and they're willing to make a pact with the devil to achieve it. It's no different here. Damn the lives, the health and reproductive rights of American women, so long as the trans don't get their way.

It's insane, disgusting and completely anti-feminist in nature. It isn't completely surprising though, humans can be extremely selfish.

This group is not going to put a dent in our elections. They don't have that kind of power.
We have the power with our votes.

Go vote, ladies, VOTE these fuckers out...and let's take the senate too, this time. Things are looking up. VOTE VOTE VOTE!

www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/02/07/radical-feminists-conservatives-transgender-rights/

@DameFanny

You honestly believe the Militia is anti fascist *@UsedUpUsername*? Or that one of them attended at BLM rally in good faith?

How do you feel about Trump calling for Whitmer to be locked up? What crimes is she supposed to have committed?

I don’t have to believe anything. It’s right there in the articles I posted. Local news as well, so more trustworthy.

I already posted what I think about it, that this is a good example of the horseshoe theory in politics where extremists at both ends have actually a lot of ideas in common.

As for the rally, I have no idea. But this meme that he unleashed a right-wing militia on Whitmer is demonstrably false.

It sounds like you think the far left couldn't possibly be guilty of anything when the point is extremists of any stripe are wild cards that could stoop to anything.

Trump talks shit, that's well documented and condemned, and nobody but extremists are likely to listen. Good on the FBI for catching that Michigan crowd, of whatever extremist stripe they turn out to be.

The far left has plenty of rhetoric too, Punch A Nazi for one example, and they also portray exactly half the country as Nazis. That doesn't bode well either, does it? And theres been plenty of examples of violence during the unrest. Its ridiculous to say these committed political partisans are too pure and high minded to stoop to violence and it must all be outside agitators - but those committed political partisans are uniquely evil.

All of that should also be disowned by anyone who considers themselves centrist or moderate of whatever leaning.

So yeah, doing a bit of both sidesing here, but that's cause there actually are two sides to a horseshoe.

It's such a pity that media and social media has become so polarised.

And if you are interested in one of many reasons why feminist prefer Biden to Trump, I give you his Violence Against Women Act which was passed over 20 years ago:

'Today, many experts credit VAWA with contributing to a dramatic decrease in the rate of domestic violence in the United States. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, the overall rate of intimate-partner violence dropped 64% from 1993 to 2010.

Lawyers who helped to draft the bill say that part of the reason the legislation has been so successful is that it has helped to create a profound cultural change, and has encouraged Americans to take gender-based violence seriously.'

If you are interested in reading more: time.com/5675029/violence-against-women-act-history-biden/

I don't think the Whitmer kidnapper guys can offer any coherent political thought but are anti-government and anti- 'deep state.' I mean one of them offered this:
'A meme Caserta shared shows a man with his face obscured holding a rifle, with the caption "when you've smoked 3 commies before you can legally smoke cigarettes."
But what is undeniable is that the president has attacked and undermined the governor repeatedly at rallies and on Twitter, stoking this sort of violence. The 'lock her up' stuff makes me ill.

As I said above, I'm 99% sure that voices on this thread pretending to be pro-Trump feminists are doing this so they can screenshot and post it on Twitter.

MNetters tend to be soft left, though some soft right of centre. What they are not, and what is given very short shrift, is supporters of either blatant racists or of men who talk about "grabbing women by the pussy".

Anyone saying that MNetters are cool with this are lying.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg, you quoted my post to make a point about the UK. Which I was not discussing.

The situations are different in crucial ways.

In the UK, at the last election, voters did NOT have a choice between a Trump-like candidate on the far right and a soft left candidate like Biden. They had a choice between a right wing candidate in Johnson who came across as jokey and a nice, normal guy (I'm not saying he is, but that's how he was seen - pre-Covid, his utter incompetence had not yet become apparent) versus Corbyn, who was the one who clearly came across as the extremist, racist, anti-democratic, incompetent loon.

And in the UK, the extremist, racist, anti-democratic, incompetent loon lost in a landslide.

As I've said previously, extremists whether right or left are very similar. Voters in the UK certainly are not big on racists (different story I agree in the US, where a sizeable proportion are actively racist), and no-one is big on incompetence, especially where lives are at stake.

I would count myself as soft left but there is no way I would ever have voted for Corbyn (you will doubtless be surprised to hear).

Maybe a better comparison is Johnson now - now that his incompetence has become more apparent - versus Starmer, another soft left candidate much closer to Biden. It may have escaped your notice, but Starmer has now overtaken Johnson in the polls here.

"I already posted what I think about it, that this is a good example of the horseshoe theory in politics where extremists at both ends have actually a lot of ideas in common."

But @UsedUpUsername you haven't said what you think about a President saying this on the eve of an election and whether you think this is an acceptable way for a politician to behave? Would you vote for a man who says this?