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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

267 replies

VaginalMicrobiome · 13/10/2020 02:52

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

OP posts:
InflamatoryWrit · 13/10/2020 14:16

Maybe it was a bit harsh for me to say the reaction is excessive, but posts like these just seem to spark so much hate against trans people that the overall result does end up being a bit excessive.

I thought the OP was highlighting an uneducated employee's use of trans as a way to virtue-signal. That was my take. And their inability to frame the product as one for women by trying to center transwomen (crudely put: men...no vagina) and entirely ignoring transmen who do have the required equipment.

Being rooted in reality and not point scoring is not trans hate.

Cocothefirst · 13/10/2020 14:16

Maybe it was a bit harsh for me to say the reaction is excessive, but posts like these just seem to spark so much hate against trans people that the overall result does end up being a bit excessive.

Where's the hate?

laidbacklife · 13/10/2020 14:22

Bravo 👏👏
Although I cannot believe his reply was, “I guess so.” Like he still wasn’t absolutely sure 🙄 Why exactly is he working in a scientific environment?

MaudTheInvincible · 13/10/2020 14:22

a) ignoring her chosen identity and b) reinforcing the concept that trans woman are men. Both of which are indisputably transphobic things to do.

I can see how the first is impolite, but you're going to have to explain the 'indisputably transphobic' bit, because I dispute it.

Whatwouldscullydo · 13/10/2020 14:22

Well it's just another rule of misogyny isn't it.

Women being blamed for the perceived threat from men to trans people...

Women are responsible for what men do

IDontMindMarmite · 13/10/2020 14:26

Please, point out the hate here.

You can't though can you? Why are you so invested in gaslighting and shutting women up? Where's your skin in this game? Can this really be just pandering to the

InflamatoryWrit · 13/10/2020 14:29

the concept that trans woman are men

But transwomen ARE men. This is reality, not a concept. The employee messed up because he did not consider this reality for the product he was working on.

This is not transphobia, damn it

Sexnotgender · 13/10/2020 14:30

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Overreaction in my opinion

Saying someone needs a vagina for a vaginal product is an over reaction?

I think any mention of vaginas, women, vaginal products at all is an overreaction. Best we just never mention it at all.
RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 13/10/2020 14:32

@MaudTheInvincible

a) ignoring her chosen identity and b) reinforcing the concept that trans woman are men. Both of which are indisputably transphobic things to do.

I can see how the first is impolite, but you're going to have to explain the 'indisputably transphobic' bit, because I dispute it.

Well exactly

Its not a concept is it

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 13/10/2020 14:32

Fair point sex

NO ONE MENTION RUDE BITS

That’ll do it

Datun · 13/10/2020 14:32

KeaBee

Is it the reaction of many transwomen to people not validating them that makes you think it's hate?

Because there are really an awful lot of women on here who have trans people in their families. They don't hate them.

They dispute that they have changed sex and on that basis dispute the erosion of single sex spaces.

I can't help feeling it's just a little daft to not understand the objection to the fact that you can't use certain words to describe reality and a political position, because the very people who are denying it get upset.

Malahaha · 13/10/2020 14:35

@MaudTheInvincible

a) ignoring her chosen identity and b) reinforcing the concept that trans woman are men. Both of which are indisputably transphobic things to do.

I can see how the first is impolite, but you're going to have to explain the 'indisputably transphobic' bit, because I dispute it.

I also dispute it, and I don't care a fig about being called transphobic. That word is meaningless ever since it's been used against people who say "women don't have penises" etc. Which they don't.

Reinforcing the belief that transwomen are women is indisputably misogynistic.

You don't get to make up new definitions to words. The word "woman" is taken. We (women) do not consent to expanding its definition to include males.

This is basic. No need to derail this very interesting thread. This is a feminist board. We do not accept you mansplaining us as to what a woman is.

MaudTheInvincible · 13/10/2020 14:39

Its not a concept is it

Exactly. It's an indisputable fact.

Reinforcing the belief that transwomen are women is indisputably misogynistic.

Absolutely. Rank misogyny.

TheQuietWoman · 13/10/2020 14:42

It is frightening how far removed some people are from reality, that they think men can actually become women and to say otherwise is a phobia. I would respectfully suggest that they seek professional help and support in order to cope with reality and stop trying to compel the rest of us to believe in their bizarre ideology.

grey12 · 13/10/2020 14:45

That was a great comeback! And kudos to you for doing research on neo vaginas as well :)

The product seems quite interesting. Good luck!

ChristmasCarcass · 13/10/2020 14:49

@SnuggyBuggy

Transmen are seen so differently by men. It's like us women have to "be kind" and accept transwomen are women but no one really expects men to see transmen as the same category as them.
That’s because as far as many men are concerned, there are two categories of people in the world: Men, and Failed Men.

The Failed Men category encompasses cis women, trans men, trans women, and potentially some gay men who are letting the side down by not being sufficiently blokey.

InflamatoryWrit · 13/10/2020 14:52

I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.

This is it. This is a product for women, a product whose use and therefore value gets obfuscated by a man-baby who is trying to eat up those woke-cookies (or worse, has no idea about the difference between men/women/biology/gender/sex, and given some responses in this thread who can blame him). Good work OP

Imnobody4 · 13/10/2020 14:52

Well this thread went weird pretty quickly. Back on planet earth, well done OP for being clear, concise and accurate. It's beyond frustrating that someone sits through a talk about a significant female health issue and the only comment they have is about transwomen.

FannyCann · 13/10/2020 14:58

Just be nice and respect others, that's all you need to do like damn.

You should have added "and shut up and do as you're told".

doublehalo · 13/10/2020 15:00

@Clymene

I have. As the OP says, new vaginas have very little in common with vaginas and so her product would be really inappropriate.

Yes, as the study clearly states a very high percentage of neo vaginas have a very different biome and are unhealthy as a result.

A new biome, modeled on that of a healthy vagina might well be very beneficial.

IDontMindMarmite · 13/10/2020 15:08

@doublehalo

@Clymene

I have. As the OP says, new vaginas have very little in common with vaginas and so her product would be really inappropriate.

Yes, as the study clearly states a very high percentage of neo vaginas have a very different biome and are unhealthy as a result.

A new biome, modeled on that of a healthy vagina might well be very beneficial.

This is just bizarre wishful thinking. Why would biomes modeled on vaginas be likely to be "helpful"? The male body is never going to replicate a woman's. You're clearly no bioscientist, you're way beyond your realm of knowledge here. Wtf are you talking about.
Butterer · 13/10/2020 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Butterer · 13/10/2020 15:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Malahaha · 13/10/2020 15:28

@FannyCann

Just be nice and respect others, that's all you need to do like damn.

You should have added "and shut up and do as you're told".

Grin "back to the kitchen, you cervix-haver you!"
Babdoc · 13/10/2020 15:33

Having ploughed through all that predictable and tedious derailing and trolling to get this far, may I just add my congratulations, OP.
You did well to respond so perfectly with no time to prepare. I hope the foolish young virtue signaller has been given food for thought. And not the woke cookies he was expecting! Grin

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