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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

267 replies

VaginalMicrobiome · 13/10/2020 02:52

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2020 13:11

Yeah... if you were going to do it in fully trans compliant language you'd have to say 'vagina or front hole'. Which might cause some confusion (and potential injury) to biologically literate women.

DeRigueurMortis · 13/10/2020 13:15

Isn't it unethical to market medical products to people who do not need them?

Cocothefirst · 13/10/2020 13:18

Woman is a discrete biological sex category. Gender is meaningless bollocks.

Sexnotgender · 13/10/2020 13:22

@Cocothefirst

Woman is a discrete biological sex category. Gender is meaningless bollocks.
Totally.
KeaBee · 13/10/2020 13:23

Overreaction in my opinion - he did get it wrong with what he said, should have been trans men (females identifying as men) who you also market it too, but he was just trying to help and put forward a useful consideration that might help you market your product (basically just doing his job). Also as a side note, it is quite transphobic to refer to trans women as men.

Whatwouldscullydo · 13/10/2020 13:26

There's one single qualifying criteria fir being a transwomen can you guess what that is and why can't I be one?

A phobia is an irrational fear or hatred of something. What fear or hatred is being generated by correctly seeing an individual?

Cwenthryth · 13/10/2020 13:26

[quote Onadifferentuniverse]@Cocothefirst I do agree, I’m not trans and don’t know anyone who is.
But, I can recognise with all the ways people identify (and don’t identify) these days, it’s important that people can access treatments they need.
The word women isn’t necessary, and I’d happily go without it on a box to ensure that another women could get the product without feeling any shame.[/quote]
You’ve tripped up on your own terminology there, surely you shouldn’t be referring to ‘women feeling shame’ (at being called a woman), you mean transmen or non-binary females here, right? Or do you actually really know that woman refers to sex, as you’ve correctly used it here?

So no, woman is not a gender - but you have hit the nail on the head at identifying the cause of the issue here, the attempt by people who believe in/subscribe to the construct of gender, to redefine terms to suit their worldview. The word woman is taken, and has a definition already.

Whatwouldscullydo · 13/10/2020 13:26

Correctly sexing

RuffleCrow · 13/10/2020 13:27

Transphobia is an irrational fear of transpeople - that's something a qualified psychiatrist would have to diagnose. Only it's not a condition listed in the DSM. Oh dear @KeaBee

ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2020 13:27

How on earth was what the OP responded an 'overreaction'? It was simply a succinct correction to a bloody stupid comment (not a 'useful consideration').Hmm

MaudTheInvincible · 13/10/2020 13:30

@Cocothefirst

Woman is a discrete biological sex category. Gender is meaningless bollocks.

Yep, it's quasi-religious hokum.

InflamatoryWrit · 13/10/2020 13:30

Woman is a social construct.

That's goady.

it is quite transphobic to refer to trans women as men.

Everything is transphobic these days. Really, the word has lost all meaning. It may well be transphobic in your view to refer to transwomen as men, but when it comes down to deciding if transwomen are in need of a product that is applied to a vagina, it is helpful to remember that they are, in fact, men. That is simple reality that has to be understood when marketing this product. Not goady.

InflamatoryWrit · 13/10/2020 13:33

he was just trying to help and put forward a useful consideration that might help you market your product (basically just doing his job).

crazy talk. he is an enthusiastic man-splaining ee-jit. if this is "doing his job" I despair

KeaBee · 13/10/2020 13:33

@RuffleCrow

Homophobia/Transphobia - yes, phobia literally means fear, but anyone who has ever read anything from the mainstream media will know that these terms are commonly used to refer to discriminatory behaviour against such groups.

Let's not be needlessly pedantic, eh?

Whatwouldscullydo · 13/10/2020 13:35

We are against all firms of violence and hateful behaviour.

We cant gouge our eyes out though so either you believe nature and biology is trabsphobic or you are trying to shut down discussion by making us panic abkut being phobic.

Which is it?

KeaBee · 13/10/2020 13:37

Will agree that OPs initial comment wasn't particularly an overreaction, just a fair statement based on the man's dumb(ish) comment. But then to come onto MN just to rant about it does seem a bit excessive

Thelnebriati · 13/10/2020 13:38

Its not discriminatory to say 'you do not need this product since its for an organ you do not possess''.

Whatwouldscullydo · 13/10/2020 13:39

You r here though...

InflamatoryWrit · 13/10/2020 13:40

@KeaBee

Will agree that OPs initial comment wasn't particularly an overreaction, just a fair statement based on the man's dumb(ish) comment. But then to come onto MN just to rant about it does seem a bit excessive
Yeah, women shouldn't talk about things that make men look bad. Is that a Rule of Misogyny? Must be one of them
ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2020 13:40

I reckon it's quite misogynistic to turn a discussion about women's healthcare issues into anything about males tbh. Its noticeable that poster didn't complain about calling transmen women.

KeaBee · 13/10/2020 13:41

@allWhatwouldscullydo Not trying to shut down the conversation at all, just pointing out that referring to trans women as men is transphobic in the same way that if I insisted on referring to a woman as a man it would be sexist.

Biological female = Women/Trans men
Biological male = Men/Trans women

It's that simple.

Whatwouldscullydo · 13/10/2020 13:43
Hmm
ErrolTheDragon · 13/10/2020 13:43

I'm generally happy to refer to TW as Male/transwomen. It helps avoid this sort of diversion/derail.

Collidascope · 13/10/2020 13:44

Do some people really not understand how words work? Female is quite literally part of the definition of woman. And female is quite literally about biology. There is no need to qualify woman or female with "biological" or "biologically." How on earth else would you be a woman or female but biologically?

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