You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

[VaginalMicrobiome]

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

[pequini]

Amen op. Well done. What a twat without even having one.

[Wandawomble]

He’s clearly never had sex.

[powershowerforanhour]

I wonder if the woke young man is the type who refers to the miracle of evolutionary engineering that is the vagina using the terms "gash" and "axe wound" when he's sniggering with his mates. Wouldn't be surprised; it fits with the "failed man" category as a PP so succinctly put it.

[powershowerforanhour]

very high percentage of neo vaginas have a very different biome and are unhealthy as a result.

A new biome, modeled on that of a healthy vagina might well be very beneficial.

Why? I don't think the male body has any usable tissue that could replicate the pH of a normal vagina and thus the microbiome therein, the right type of goblet cells, the response nature intended to the fluctuation in hormones that nature creates in menstruating and pregnant women, etc.

May as well use a product designed to maintain a healthy bacterial flora in the mouth, armpits or wherever as there is about as much similarity between the two.

[Cailleach1]

@SpartacusAutisticus

Some of these responses are utterly ridiculous. A constructed from penile, or colon, or peritoneal tissue, orifice is of course going to have an entirely different biome to a vagina, because it is not a vagina, 'neo' or otherwise.

And the word woman is taken.

Well done OP 💪🏼

I think the phrase 'there's no making a silk purse out of a sow's ear' is apt here.

[BasiliskStare]

@ErrolTheDragon - I misread the Eden Domes being on a slight larger scale for your vag to being on a larger scale for your veg. I was imagining huge broccoli and the like. Perhaps this uncritical way of thinking is how these things start

[doublehalo]

@BacklashBacklash - thank you.

And @wellbehavedwomen, thank you for your apology

[ErrolTheDragon]

@FannyCann

I confess to becoming rather confused about all this talk of biomes. I thought a biome was a massive greenhouse bubble as found at the Eden Project.

Easy mistake to make. The ecosystems within the Eden domes are indeed (artificial) biomes but speaking for myself they're on a slightly large scale for my vag.

[Clymene]

@FannyCann

I confess to becoming rather confused about all this talk of biomes. I thought a biome was a massive greenhouse bubble as found at the Eden Project.

Maybe that's how doublehalo got confused?

[youdidask]

for you op well done
👏big round of applause too.

Hopefully someone higher in his food chain will have a less than quiet word with him about displaying his stupidity in public.

[FannyCann]

I confess to becoming rather confused about all this talk of biomes. I thought a biome was a massive greenhouse bubble as found at the Eden Project.

[Datun]

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

The man, if I am still allowed to call him that these days, oh, and if I can use "him", probably doesn't even care either way. He has just been conditioned that this is something we must now all consider when opening our mouths in case we offend a vagina'less person getting offended on behalf of another person who is now penis'less through choice.

Yep.

He's just repeating the mantra, with nary a thought about what it means.

[LifesNotEnidBlyton]

The man, if I am still allowed to call him that these days, oh, and if I can use "him", probably doesn't even care either way. He has just been conditioned that this is something we must now all consider when opening our mouths in case we offend a vagina'less person getting offended on behalf of another person who is now penis'less through choice.

[Igneococcus]

I haven't seen so much animated discussion about microbiology since the last opponents of the three domains system caved in (or possibly died).

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

@Whatwouldscullydo

*Yep
Everything we know about depressive thinking (obsessive thoughts, brooding, black and white thinking, hyper vigilance, Catastrophic thinking, compulsive, paranoid thinking etc). We try to teach people NOT to do these things and to get some perspective*

Except in this case I don't think its perspective thats needed. Not in the trigger sense anyway. More on the wanting to be the centre of attention side is where the perspective is needed.

I mean you have periods every month and cope yet the packaging/wording is suddenly a problem? Would it be a problem if there wasn't a daily mail sadface or face book and twitter to post pics and get sympathy and attention for?

I mean are we supoosed to believe those who join the masons an exclusively male club and stay there after transition cope with being in an exclusively male club whilst simultaneously feeling that something isn't inclusive of them because it says woman and that's what triggers them?

None of it makes any sense. I mean you father children , something only men can do and we are supposed to believe or at least were supposed to believe their bodies are all wrong? Or they get pregnant the most female thing in the world and are then triggered by the word mother?

Or dye your hair bright blue and wear a bright orange tutu and complain everyone notices you?

The triggers seem awfully selective at times and the solution is always something that fucks over women

Could. Not. Agree. More.

[wellbehavedwomen]

@doublehalo in that case, I apologise - I should not make assumptions! Sadly you get rather jaded by the trolling on here, but this isn't the first time I've been unfair to a fellow Mumsnetter posting in good faith, and I should have learned from that.

I don't disagree that there should be better research for trans surgeries, and the results. I do feel frustrated that women's research is so marginalised, though.

Thanks, @BacklashBacklash - read a bit earlier and left, as so frustrated - then came and saw this and thought it was more of the same. It's good to be reminded that careful reading is important, or good faith posters can get unfairly lambasted.

[Clymene]

@SpartacusAutisticus

Some of these responses are utterly ridiculous. A constructed from penile, or colon, or peritoneal tissue, orifice is of course going to have an entirely different biome to a vagina, because it is not a vagina, 'neo' or otherwise.

And the word woman is taken.

Well done OP 💪🏼

Yes, quite. You can't make a neo vagina have a biome like a vagina's because it isn't one. Human tissue isn't a neutral piece of plastic which you can just assign properties to like you can choose features on an avatar.

The only way you could construct a neo vagina so that it had a biome similar to a vagina is if you made it out of a vagina and I hope to god no one is suggesting that.

[BacklashBacklash]

No, apparently saying research should be about neo-vaginas instead of the boring old cunty type isn't atallsaying that males matter more than females. Heaven forfend.

To be fair, she didn't say this. She said that a new biome modelled on real vaginas might be beneficial. Which might be bollock, scientifically speaking, but nowhere did she suggest that this should happen instead of research on real vaginas. And as DoubleHalo appears to be gender critical, I doubt that was the intention.

I appreciate there's been trolling on this thread. I don't think this was an example of it at all. And I personally think Marmite was bizarrely aggressive in response, though calling her a cunt wasn't in order, obviously.

[Clymene]

@doublehalo

@Clymene

I have. As the OP says, new vaginas have very little in common with vaginas and so her product would be really inappropriate.

Yes, as the study clearly states a very high percentage of neo vaginas have a very different biome and are unhealthy as a result.

A new biome, modeled on that of a healthy vagina might well be very beneficial.

Please tell me you're having a laugh now.

[wellbehavedwomen]

@Sexnotgender

Not being very nice by pointing out the world doesn’t revolve around men😂 how very dare you!

No, apparently saying research should be about neo-vaginas instead of the boring old cunty type isn't at all saying that males matter more than females. Heaven forfend.

And I suppose it isn't, when you subvert language, so you can erase female people as an identifiable class at all, by making the term self-selected instead of biologically accurate. While insisting that there's no problem with this for the group affected - even if they have always been oppressed by the other group - and even though you eliminate any way to identify who they are, and how they are disadvantaged, by this linguistic gymnastics.

So odd that women object to that. So hateful. Why can't we just be nice?

[BigBadVoodooHat]

@Cwenthryth

One thing I never understand is why some trans activists decide that us not sharing their beliefs = hate. I don’t hate anyone who believes TWAW, I just don’t agree with them.

Because that's the way of large parts of the online the world now. There's one 'correct' viewpoint; any divergence from that is 'hate speech' and the perpetrator must be 'cancelled' forthwith, or subjected to death/rape threats.

[Whatwouldscullydo]

I'm not sure whether it's okay to laugh or not. This kind of rage is disturbing in a way but... eh, fuck it, I'm going to laugh

Are we also supoosed to pretend that women saying no to men gives any other reaction than pure rage no matter how nicely we put it...

[Totickleamockingbird]

@Kantastic

Wow, this is some thread. I was wondering if multiple women clearly stating that neovaginas are different from vaginas might push a few rage buttons but my expectations have been massively exceeded.

I'm not sure whether it's okay to laugh or not. This kind of rage is disturbing in a way but... eh, fuck it, I'm going to laugh.

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

How do these things go from 0 to 60 😳