You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

[VaginalMicrobiome]

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

I think if he doesn't know what a vagina is he really should still be in school.

Thank you so much! It needs calling out each and every time.

I hope he felt like the dumbass he is. I think transwomen would know this product isn't relevant to them.

@EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus

Great work.

As for your colleague, I think ‘women and those identifying as women’ apart from being wrong for your product, would just have pissed transwomen off anyway because it would make it clear they were actually men.

Absolutely! This idiot clearly doesn’t even understand the basics of the issue and what TWAW means, and thinks he can educate you! His suggested phrasing is acceptable to no one, and does not even describe the full potential target market accurately in genderspeak. What a loser.

I tell you what would be nice - if the marketing and packaging for the product was completely ungendered. No pink, no flowers, no language talking about nurturing or gentle etc. Just straightforward language, and a calm/colourful design.

The whole issue is that the word women must be uncoupled from their biology in order that that the word isn't dependent on it.

TRAs are very clear that the word (and concept) of woman is a gender identify. Nothing to do with biology, otherwise male born individuals can't be one.

This is coming from males not females. Some identity as women, and there are others who don't, but just hate women. Like your marketing twit.

This man's 'and those who identify as women' shows he hasn't quite received the right memo tho. He should have said 'men have vagjnas too, so you can't talk about women. You must talk about 'people with vagjnas'.

Thereby forcing the decoupling of women with their biology.

My worry would be that he reads the right memo as soon as he can and gets back to you to try again.

This raises the interesting question around marketing and the spc.

Presumably your drug will be licensed for use on women. Not making that abundantly clear, or even implying that it is suitable for those who aren’t women, would be a breach of MHRA and FDA Law.

Self identification has not yet been tested as a concept in regulatory/marketing law because no legal/compliance team would be insane enough to sanction such an approach.

He was just a young guy, steeped in woke culture without fully understanding some of the implications, which is why he looked like an eejat. Impetuous youth and thinking he was smart. We've all done it, it's a signature of young people.

@DimidDavilby

I think if you're concerned about inclusivity it's trans men you need to think of. So it's women, and others with vaginas. HTH.

This kind of proves the OPs point though as it shows how misogymist all this wokeness is. The marketing person's first thought on inclusivity was to include men who identify as women, without even considering transmen who will actually benefit from the product as they have vaginas.

He was a prick. You pointed out the obvious flaw in his comment. He was trying to be 'woke'. He was also trying to centre this around men.

Your presentation was about something that affect only individuals born as women. A manufactured vagina is just that a manufactured vagina and will not behave the same way as one from nature.

Well done you.

This kind of proves the OPs point though as it shows how misogymist all this wokeness is. The marketing person's first thought on inclusivity was to include men who identify as women, without even considering transmen who will actually benefit from the product as they have vaginas.

This.

He instinctively wants to centre men who identify as women but forgot to use the right group - women who identify as men - in order to do it.

@VaginalMicrobiome I’m also concerned that your post is sufficiently commercially sensitive and outing to get you in difficulty if someone who knows you/with the time to do the research reports you.

@highame

He was just a young guy, steeped in woke culture without fully understanding some of the implications, which is why he looked like an eejat. Impetuous youth and thinking he was smart. We've all done it, it's a signature of young people.

I haven't. It's a particularly male way to behave.

I’d be inclined to send this young man, and possibly everyone at that meeting, the info you found on neo- vaginas. There will be then no further questions/comments about neo vaginas being anything like an actual vagina.

There are quite a few probiotics available for vaginal dysbiosis including from the company I work for, unless the OP tells us in detail which strains of microbes the new product contain, I don't think there is anything commercially sensitive about her post.

Well done OP great work in all senses.

I honestly think a lot of younger men have no idea how women's biology works. I keep hearing these stories and I wonder what they learned at school in their science lessons.

If this was a member of my team he’s have just marked his card as a misogynist and not very intelligent, in my opinion, impetuous youth or no! I don’t really appreciate impetuousness one my juniors

His language is exclusionary in this instance anyway. No matter what their biological reality, clearly there are people with vaginas who don’t individually identify as women. Surely there’s a way to market a vaginal health product without having to get into identity politics though? Can’t we just talk about how to fix our itchy muffs without having to ponder how we feel about our inner selves as well?

I drive past an advert on the way to work at the moment for an Azera coffee can emblazoned with various permutations of the female and male symbols (biological symbols FFS!) mashed together in rainbow colours, emblazoned with “its not just coffee, it’s a statement of identity!”. Nah mate, it’s coffee, and no thanks.

... I wonder what they learned at school in their science lessons.

That people can change sex, presumably.

[quote PegasusReturns]@VaginalMicrobiome I’m also concerned that your post is sufficiently commercially sensitive and outing to get you in difficulty if someone who knows you/with the time to do the research reports you.[/quote]
I doubt it. There's loads of vaginal probiotics on the market.

What Highame said - we’ve all done it, just the ignorance of youth. :-))
It is exciting that there is more research and products are developed in this area - since I discovered the concept of the microbiome and how it governs out health and mental health I’ve been fascinated. I take kefir and apple cider vinegar daily and it has definitely helped - I am a little less grumpy these days.

As far as I have found out though, the male and female microbiome are measurably different in so many ways - OP is that right?

He's a cretin and deserved to hear it. Well done Op, sounds like a great product, but the trans women are going be really pissed off about not being included in vagina club.

Excellent clap back there op and I agree with a pp who suggested that you forward on your findings about how different neo-vaginas are and how inappropriate for them this product would be.

At 24 he has been part of the generational cohort educated, probably at school, definitely at university to think this way. I understand the ire expressed here, but the only way to stop it is to properly educate those who have been afflicted in this way. Any parent of teens/young folk will have seen them exposed to this. I think the job of the matriarchs is to put it right. But anger towards the young as a first response is not fair. It is what they were taught.

Quite right OP. I should think the very first step in selling any product is understanding what the product is for and for whom.

Your young collegue is possibly under the same mistaken idea as the vast majority of people, that TW or people who identify as women have had the appropriate surgery.

However, I think people who have had the surgery will also benefit from your product. If you read the study in the link a PP posted you'll see that most neo vaginas are a hot mess and badly in need of the correct biome.

@doublehalo

Quite right OP. I should think the very first step in selling any product is understanding what the product is for and for whom.

Your young collegue is possibly under the same mistaken idea as the vast majority of people, that TW or people who identify as women have had the appropriate surgery.

However, I think people who have had the surgery will also benefit from your product. If you read the study in the link a PP posted you'll see that most neo vaginas are a hot mess and badly in need of the correct biome.

You must not have read OPs posts, this product is in every way inappropriate because neo-vaginas do not share any of the same characteristics as vaginas and as such this product would not provide the correct biome.

And it's not women's job to educate grown men who are perfectly capable of reading.