You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

[VaginalMicrobiome]

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

That’s a pretty poor reason not to use the word women, seeing as it’s the vast, overwhelming majority of those who’ll see a benefit from this product. Why erase millions of people just to satisfy the feelings of a few tens of thousands at the very most?

Onadifferentuniverse

What an apt user name.

@BeepBoopBop

How about the term 'biological women'? Includes the trans men too.

how about 'women'?

Women are women and we shouldn't feel a need to qualify what 'type' of woman we are because that implies that there is another type and there isn't.

I can't see how 'biological woman' is any more inclusive of transmen as it is the same thing as woman.

[quote Onadifferentuniverse]@Cwenthryth when you’re talking about a vaginal health product, the term women isn’t needed though. It’s self explanatory. There’s absolutely no need to label the user of the product at all.[/quote]
Only women have vaginas, no matter how they identify. So it's absolutely appropriate to have 'women' on the product.

Well done, OP.

It’s a health product, for vaginas. I think people should be able to buy it if they need it without any stigma regardless of how they identify.

[quote Onadifferentuniverse]@Cwenthryth when you’re talking about a vaginal health product, the term women isn’t needed though. It’s self explanatory. There’s absolutely no need to label the user of the product at all.[/quote]
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Maybe though, since they're so woefully behind on this matter, you could try expending your energies on men's (sorry, people with prostates, testicles, penises) health issues?

@Cocothefirst I do agree, I’m not trans and don’t know anyone who is.
But, I can recognise with all the ways people identify (and don’t identify) these days, it’s important that people can access treatments they need.
The word women isn’t necessary, and I’d happily go without it on a box to ensure that another women could get the product without feeling any shame.

‘ Well, you're entitled to your opinion. Maybe though, since they're so woefully behind on this matter, you could try expending your energies on men's (sorry, people with prostates, testicles, penises) health issues?’

If someone has a penis it’s pretty obvious what they are, let’s be honest though some of these people refer to themselves as female.

Also, not having the word women on a box isn’t a fight against men is it, it’s a fight for women who don’t identify as women to be able to purchase things that they need for their health without feeling any shame.

Who is 'stigmatising' anyone?
Except those who are trying to make 'women' a shameful term.

‘ The word women isn’t necessary, and I’d happily go without it on a box to ensure that another women could get the product without feeling any shame, regardless of how they identify- because some women don’t identify as women, or men, or either’

That should’ve said.

@ErrolTheDragon the only people I can see trying to stigmatise the word women are those who are now identifying as men.

Why would they feel shame? Why use language that is exclusionary to millions when it would be more helpful to assist people in coming to terms with inescapable aspects of their biological sex?
It’s just arse about face.

All I can see recently is how every angle of these arguments is contradictory.

If someone has a vagina they should be entitled to buy a product of health for it.
Same with a penis.

the only people I can see trying to stigmatise the word women are those who are now identifying as men.

I don't think you're correct, but if that was the case then the best thing would be for them to stop doing that.

@Onadifferentuniverse

It’s a health product, for vaginas. I think people should be able to buy it if they need it without any stigma regardless of how they identify.

Could you explain more about what you mean by stigma in this sense please? (genuine question) - my husband happily buys period products for me and dds without a second thought.

Surely if a person that everyone assumes is male buys female specific products, people would assume that they are buying it for someone else so I honestly can't see where any suggestion of stigma might come in?

I honestly feel like I need a new vagina sometimes

@Vermeil of course there’s shame attached otherwise people wouldn’t get these mutilating surgery’s to change what they have down below.

Well if he's in marketing he could probably sell shit loads of your products to TW.

It sounds like the sort of product women don't want, but might need.
And the sort of product TW do want, but absolutely don't need.

@gardenbird48 because the product they’re buying doesn’t conform to their identity, it must be awful to have to do this. Must be a constant reminder of their struggles.

• If someone has a vagina they should be entitled to buy a product of health for it. Same with a penis.*

Which they are. They shouldn't feel entitled to impose changes of language on the whole of the rest of society. It's clear in the case of the 'people with cervices' nonsense that using biological descriptors rather than normal accepted clear English is obfuscatory and unhelpful to women.

@FannyCann

*neo-vagina I meant, not new vagina. 😳

I feel like I need a new vagina sometimes

@ErrolTheDragon if the word women being missing on a box for a vaginal health product offends you as a women, I think that’s more of an issue than the ‘issue’ itself.
It’s not unhelpful to women, not every women has a vagina.

And taking away the word women actually protects ‘women’ who don’t identify as such.

Onadifferentuniverse You don't feel the word women is necessary and therefore don't feel it's desirable. I feel differently. I feel that by not using the word women here would be to contribute to the extant stigma around women and their bodies.

What is more, if someone who is a woman but has a gender identity which makes them uncomfortable with the sex class they belong to were to protest about the use of their sex class signifier, then they would be actively excluding and potentially harming other women such as those with learning difficulties or who have English as a secondary language who need clear language, instead of medicalised terms like vagina or cervix.

Nice work op

Plenty of men buy their significant others and daughters tampons. Here's no stigma attached. Cashiers sell them hundreds of times a day they don't care either.

And why the hell should the word women not appear on products specifically fir women just because some people think anyone gives a crap what they are buying. No ones taking any notice. Its shopping.

Okay then, let’s have a little thought experiment.
We stop using the word woman because it upsets a small number of people. One of those people, who because everyone else has changed how they use words to help them feel comfortable rather than helping them deal with their biological reality, develops symptoms of cervical cancer. They found the idea of smear tests deeply upsetting because it reminds them they’re female. The thought that they might have a major gynae problem is even more upsetting, so they avoid getting any treatment until it’s too late.
How has changing wording and being affirmative, rather than helping them deal with the shame they feel about their biological reality, done them any favours?