You need a vagina to benefit from a vaginal microbiome intervention

[VaginalMicrobiome]

Namechanged as discussing my job and potentially outing product.
I work in a biotech company where we've been researching and developing a new probiotic treating various aspects of vaginal dysbiosis (thrush, BV, HPV risk and other conditions associated with a disturbed or sub-optimal vaginal microbiome). The formulation we've been working on is nearing market readiness, and this week I (as lead researcher on this project) have been briefing the non-technical members of the company as to the mechanisms of action and clinical applications of the product. In my presentation I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general. I used the word 'women' a lot, as one would expect when talking about vaginal health. Anyway, at the end of my presentation, some bright spark in marketing mentioned that we should probably say our product was for 'women and those identifying as women'. Afraid I just could not help myself and snapped back, in front of the whole company, 'well, I do think you would actually need to have a vagina in order to benefit from this product'. He did have the grace to nod and say 'well yes, I guess so'. I possibly should not have reacted so strongly, but was so furious as I felt that all the work I've been doing developing an intervention to help WOMEN was undermined in seconds by a 24 year old male asking for men to immediately be included.
After this, I spent some time searching the published literature on the 'neo-vaginal microbiome'. There hasn't been much research yet, but it seems that, surprise surprise, a neo-vagina is colonised by completely different bacterial species from an actual vagina, so taking a probiotic targeting vaginal health will do diddly-squat for a man with a 'neo-vagina'.
Not sure what I really want out of this thread except to share my despair that women's health issues are being co-opted everywhere, even in an area that could not be more pertinent to female health.

Good work, OP. And thanks for pointing this out, Purple:
Your business (and employees, top down) rely on biological facts and clear information to avoid criminal negligence charges, prison terms, and professional and personal financial ruin.

I doubt it. There's loads of vaginal probiotics on the market

I didn’t know that. My experience is orphan biotech. I actually had no idea that they were a thing. Are there many that are getting ready to launch shortly?

I’m trying to be helpful: it seems the OP has given enough info that if you were in her field you’d be able to identify the product and certainly if you were in the meeting you’d be able to identify the OP. But as I say I had no idea they were a thing and perhaps the market is saturated and launches are regular occurrences.

I agree that the man the OP dealt with was a dick. And an uninformed one. But if someone recognised themselves / the company from this post the OPs unlikely to come out of the situation well.

anger towards the young as a first response is not fair. It is what they were taught

I reject you framing women’s responses on this thread as anger - it gives the impression of emotion over reason and discredits our justified rejection of this man’s inane comments.

I can’t see a way to interpret the exchange described that reflects well on the young man to be honest.
He wasn’t actually considering transwomen - this product is not suitable for them even if they have had genital surgery.
He wasn’t considering transmen or non binary identifying females, ignored them.
Best case he was just parroting something he’s been indoctrinated with, which makes him sound unintelligent/lacking in critical thinking skills, and bloody rude mansplaining to a senior female scientist, in front of the entire company no less!

Thank you for making the very obvious point. Sounds like a great product!

Ironically, you don't want those 'identifying' as women, but you may need to capture those who identify as trans men.

"the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general."

Keep doing what you're doing, you're amazing.

Thank you.

@Cwenthrhyth mothers of young people will have seen this sort of indoctrination in places of education in the last 5+ years. Responses here are reasonable, I am not arguing with that. Merely saying that young people don't have life experience enough yet to see through this stuff. People don't learn by being shouted at. I think OP handled it well. But if you have kids currently in education you can see where it is coming from.

Thanks OP for both your work and sticking up for sense. What a daft man.

IDontMindMarmite

Have you read the study in the link?

@Cwenthryth

anger towards the young as a first response is not fair. It is what they were taught

I reject you framing women’s responses on this thread as anger - it gives the impression of emotion over reason and discredits our justified rejection of this man’s inane comments.

I can’t see a way to interpret the exchange described that reflects well on the young man to be honest.
He wasn’t actually considering transwomen - this product is not suitable for them even if they have had genital surgery.
He wasn’t considering transmen or non binary identifying females, ignored them.
Best case he was just parroting something he’s been indoctrinated with, which makes him sound unintelligent/lacking in critical thinking skills, and bloody rude mansplaining to a senior female scientist, in front of the entire company no less!

Hear hear

How about the term 'biological women'? Includes the trans men too.

As someone who gets thrush absolutely every time I have to take antibiotics, thank you very much for your work.

Others have mentioned there are similar things out there - is there any with decent science behind them? Currently I take yakult and cut out sugar with limited effectiveness and would love to know there was something better!

@PegasusReturns

I doubt it. There's loads of vaginal probiotics on the market

I didn’t know that. My experience is orphan biotech. I actually had no idea that they were a thing. Are there many that are getting ready to launch shortly?

I’m trying to be helpful: it seems the OP has given enough info that if you were in her field you’d be able to identify the product and certainly if you were in the meeting you’d be able to identify the OP. But as I say I had no idea they were a thing and perhaps the market is saturated and launches are regular occurrences.

I agree that the man the OP dealt with was a dick. And an uninformed one. But if someone recognised themselves / the company from this post the OPs unlikely to come out of the situation well.

I only say that because I suffer from chronic thrush and I've bought several brands over the last few months, some to insert and some to ingest. I've also done some reading about the vaginal microbiome.

There's research which showed a particular strain (lactobacillus crispatus) in womens' probiotics is key for restoring the microbiome in women with thrush. Other lactobacilli strains are helpful too. Given that this is widely known, I can't see anything commercially sensitive in OP's post.

I agree the scenario could be recognisable; I think she'd have to be unlucky for one of those people in the meeting to read MN and see this post.

@doublehalo

IDontMindMarmite

Have you read the study in the link?

I have. As the OP says, new vaginas have very little in common with vaginas and so her product would be really inappropriate.

Well done you OP
I can only presume that tests of the product were done on biological women, and that stupid young man knew that...

Is the word ‘women’ really necessary though?

Good for you OP.
So illuminating that the woke response includes the transpeople without vaginas and ignores the ones which probably still do.

Well done, OP, perfect response. 'Bright sparks in marketing' do sometimes simply need a crisp clear statement of reality.

@Onadifferentuniverse

Is the word ‘women’ really necessary though?

It's much preferable to using offensive and dehumanising terms such as 'vagina-havers', so yes, the word women is definitely necessary here.

I wasn't sure where the story was heading but when I read the punchline I actually burst out laughing and then felt really despondent. I also wondered how long it would be before the biome of the neo vagina would enter this discussion and how much money would be spent researching that instead of more research on the biome of the vagina to benefit the thousands of women who suffer from vaginal dysbiosis which is possibly as a result of antibiotics, sanitary protection, phormonal contraception, barrier contraception or diet, but the pharmaceutical response is not to look at the root cause and fix the problem but to temporarily alleviate the symptoms. I hope the OP's product is a lasting solution that becomes part of women's health provision wherever possible factors that upset the vaginal biome are suggested and that before money is spent investigating the biome of the neo vagina, someone pipes up and asks if female vaginal dysbiosis is no longer an issue.

This is just typical of how ignorant the woke often are. For all the ‘educate yourself’ rhetoric, their understanding of issues is so often shallow and what little they have is heavily biased towards their preconceptions.
That’s probably why I find their arrogant ‘I’m so much more enlightened and a better person than you’ attitude so bloody annoying.

If a trans man is taking T, etc, I wouldn’t expect the product to work on them. Does anyone know?

I would have thought the whole Vaginal climate would have changed fundamentally

@Onadifferentuniverse

Is the word ‘women’ really necessary though?

Personally, I object to being referred to as a “person with a vagina” in order to avoid calling me a woman, as that reduces us to reproductive function, pretty much the crux of what feminism fights against. However, I recognise that some transmen/non-binary identifying females find the term inclusive; personally I find it erasing.

I think just leaving identity out of talking about vaginas is the key to not offending anyone.

‘ I addressed the need for a better understanding of the impact of vaginal microbiome disruption, and of women's genitourinary health in general.’

The word women isn’t necessary here. It’s self explanatory. @MaudTheInvincible

The words women/man are usually used for marketing but they’re not necessary and in my opinion shouldn’t be used on products like this.

Women are still important even if they identify as men.

@Cwenthryth when you’re talking about a vaginal health product, the term women isn’t needed though. It’s self explanatory. There’s absolutely no need to label the user of the product at all.