Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

'Oh goodness, how wonderful women out on the street will be free from the scourge of upskirting. Icing. Absolute tone deafness. Do you understand a nice shiny law doesn't matter when women are trapped by rw economic policy?'

Seriously?

Yes it is good that this is now not dropping between the cracks of voyeurism and whatever it was.

Your problem with this law is... What? Exactly. That you would have preferred something else?

A teacher got away with taking photos up the skirts of his students. It is a violation to have this sort of shit done to you.

My girlhood was blighted by weirdy men doing creepy things. As is standard and common. Why on earth see upskirting made formally illegal as, what. Pointless irrelevant. Nothing.

That's a crap view.

You can work for multiple things.

On the thread in general. The class voting assumptions are a bit wonky. I find the idea that middle classes are Tory and working classes are labour the opposite tbh. And what do those labels even mean now?

Bottom line is. None of the parties give a fuck about women. Nor the trade unions. When workers are needed we are called to work. When jobs are reduced we are shunted out again. Things that are seen as 'women's issues' are an aside. A nice to have. Always up for debate. Not important. Even when they are actually a massive issue for society.

In every difficult economic situation in recent times in the UK (but probably always everywhere) the women bear the brunt. And the children. Over and over.

And when things go wrong.. it's usually women's fault as well. Somehow.

While that's all getting sorted out though. I'm pleased that the loophole has been closed that meant a teacher taking photos up the girls skirts, or a man taking snaps up skirts on the escalator, is no longer aok.

I am very sorry about your situation op.

But what I keep coming back to is that I haven't moved to the right - or anywhere else. The left however have made it clear that they do not want me.

I cannot carry on supporting a party that effectively tells me, 'Yes, we will fight for a better life for you, but only if you shut up while we give away your rights'. A party that does this has no right to call itself progressive.

I take the point that, were my circumstances different, I might have other priorities but the fact is that I now find life on the left intolerable.

@Floisme

I am very sorry about your situation op.

But what I keep coming back to is that I haven't moved to the right - or anywhere else. The left however have made it clear that they do not want me.

I cannot carry on supporting a party that effectively tells me, 'Yes, we will fight for a better life for you, but only if you shut up while we give away your rights'. A party that does this has no right to call itself progressive.

I take the point that, were my circumstances different, I might have other priorities but the fact is that I now find life on the left intolerable.

In fairness flo they never wanted us except to man the soup kitchen. I speak as someone who has eaten at an actual soup kitchen. No women were allowed in the back room of our Welfare Club when I was a child.

Structural disadvantage will always be at the heart of my feminism, whether this is about sex, class (economic position) or race of so on. This is about how I understand and interpret the world - and I have borrowed elements of intersectional analysis to understand this. I align with the left, but not with any particular creed or party. Second-wave feminism was partly born from women who were left-aligned but fed up with the sexism of the left.

The problem with the Left in this country (and others) is that they think they own people. They think they own women, they think they own feminists, they think they own BAME people, they think they own LGBTQI people, they think they own the working class.

And they get really, really angry when the sectors of society that the Left sees as their own dare to vote differently, or dare to have wrongthink.

And it really winds the Left up when a different party from them dares to pass laws that they actually agree with. So they come up with the kind of mealy-mouthed attitude shown by a couple of PPs on this thread.

@Asterion

The problem with the Left in this country (and others) is that they think they own people. They think they own women, they think they own feminists, they think they own BAME people, they think they own LGBTQI people, they think they own the working class.

And they get really, really angry when the sectors of society that the Left sees as their own dare to vote differently, or dare to have wrongthink.

Bingo. Absolutely agree. The vitriol that is displayed to black Conservatives in the US is an example of this. The vitriol displayed to Priti Patel is another example.

And they get really, really angry when the sectors of society that the Left sees as their own dare to vote differently, or dare to have wrongthink.

I agree. I had thought I’d moved right towards the center, but after doing that political spectrum test I’m still firmly in the left.
So what I think has happened is that the left has become too authoritarian for me. Too controlling.
I’m firmly libertarian. The surrogacy issue is one example that came up in this thread. I think it’s a woman’s right to decide if/when she wants a baby either for herself or for adoption. Her body, her womb, her choice. The State should only regulate to reduce exploitation, not dictate which is the right choice.
But many on the left want to be authoritarian about it and for religious/moral reasons are uncomfortable with a planned baby being adopted out- which is all surrogacy is really. Getting pregnant purposely to then give the baby to adopting parents. The authoritarian left want to limit women’s rights by that choice being or staying illegal.

So, my libertarian view of let the woman decide, she’s an adult, she can choose risky activities, that’s her right, it’s her body, her life gets is “wrongthink” and branded as “right wing”. When it’s not right wing at all! It’s just libertarian left wing instead of authoritarian left wing.

I 100% disagree on the surrogacy thing. I can definitely understand where you are coming from, but its a similar situation to prostitution to me. Yeah some women may freely chose it, and might be happy about that. But many many women (especially poorer ones) will effectively be pressured into it. I just canot get behind the renting of a womans body in such a way, especially when a consequence (rare these days, but still there) can be death, or serious harm to the body, as in my situation.

Its a difficult one for me tbh, surrogacy. As I can see why some might want to do it, I went through a time a few years back before I discovered what pregnancy actually did to my body (6 year pain condition and counting, along with prolapse that they seem unwilling to treat at all )where I genuinely considered offering to be a surrogate for my best mate who had just got a civil partnership after being with his partner for 10 years and they wanted a child. I talked myself out of the offer eventually, and I am glad I did as I imagine once the offer was there, regardless of any changes of heart, it would have been hard, if not impossible, to take back.

I question the usefulness of labelling anything that is banned being an example of the authoritarian left.

Commercial surrogacy is banned in most countries, as is organ harvesting, regardless of how authoritarian their particular governments are.

The authoritarian left must refer to a movement that wants to curtail people’s rights and freedoms in a very broad way, not just people who want to make a few specific activities illegal. There are people who are opposed to abortion but are otherwise libertarian in their outlook.

Surrogacy is not juat about the mother for whom choice is often just an illusion. It is also about turning individual humans (babies) into commodities that are bought and sold.

The her body, her womb, her choice is very misleading, as nobody is preventing the woman getting or being pregnant. They are stopping her from selling the baby.

@Aesopfable

Surrogacy is not juat about the mother for whom choice is often just an illusion. It is also about turning individual humans (babies) into commodities that are bought and sold.

Yes I agree with this too.

Took me ages and ages to figure out why there was a niggling doubt consistantly at the back of my mind when thinking about it all. I remain ever grateful for my 2nd wave feminist mother, who 'talked me out of it' without actually talking me out of it. Well, she would talk about general things women feel obligated to do and such and how we can feel obliged to do things detrimental to ourselves to please men..stuff like that, I never actually brought up what I was thinking TO her, but definitely her views shaped my ability to change my mind. So so glad I changed it quite early on in the whole thing, so much so that friend never knew I considered it. Would have been awkward, and there lies some of the issue I think, feeling horrible to back out if needed/wanted because you might upset someone else.

Do our feminist positions change with how our lives change?

So the 18 year old feminist me was very different to the 40(ish) old feminist that I am now. My life, my priorities are different now. It doesn’t mean I’ve abandoned those issues but I can’t focus on everything.

Also what happens in our lives changes our focus. For example I have a disabled daughter. This has introduced a completely new perspective on feminism. I’m slowly learning about ableism and how society discriminates against disabled people (and women/girls have the double wammy of disabelism and sex based discrimination - for example low rates of Dx for autistic girls).

Sorry probably not relevant to the thread...it’s just got me thinking.

A good discussion OP!

Do our feminist positions change with how our lives change?

It would be odd if they, along with political positions in general, didn't change in light of our experiences. The more mature version will generally be better informed and thought out.

The 18yo me wasn't a feminist at all. I was off to uni to do a chemistry degree, without having thought at all about the reasons for the sex imbalance. 'I'm all right, Jill'. If I thought about it at all, I'd have said we had equality. Politically - Thatcherism hadn't happened but the 'winter of discontent' was recent.

Where? I would like to read about it.

Thank you, OP, for this thread. I've learned a lot and clarified my own position for myself.

Thanks

I would disagree strongly with the generalisation that left wing people, and in particular left wing feminists, are under the impression that we "own" any communities of people, but especially I disagree with the idea that most would find policies we agree with implemented by other parties disagreeable.

I'm certainly not under the impression either that all people who I think should vote left don't. That is also a massive oversimplification to me. E.g. I am a white lower income young mother and not a home owner. I feel it's obvious that the only ethical way to vote is to vote left, but I know people in my exact demographic feel the opposite. It's not alien to me that people would vote differently.

At the end of the day I do feel out of place on MN as a feminist and I do think that many posters are inherently right wing. Not necessarily hard right at all, but definitely right leaning.

At the end of the day what is most important to me is intersectional feminism and maternalism. I don't feel that is focused much on mumsnet, it is almost entirely focused on the trans debate and though clearly from another thread posters vehemently disagree with me, I also consider there to be a left right divide a with that too. I do get a sense from threads that there is a right wing lean that can make me feel automatically sort of discounted from discussion on the few threads that aren't about trans issues

Oh god why did I say "at the end of the day" so much I literally never say that in real life :/