Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

@WhereYouLeftIt

"ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure ..."

So what does this mean, @BlackWaveComing?

Individualist - the individual and his/her/their identity is all

Corporation-mediated - genderism is backed by/promoted by major Western corporations, including the social media ones.

Social pressure - pretty clear. Top-down pressure to adopt the above.

It's easy to be lazy and do what we've always done and blame the parent (mother), because that's how we've always done it. It's culturally comfortable for us to blame women for their children's outcomes. It's our historical norm. It's also a highly sexist norm, and perhaps as feminists, interested in non-sexist analysis, we might like to focus our attention, in a quest for 'causes' - ROGD, anorexia, BPD etc - on the broader social environment.

@queenofknives

Not sure what my "strong" reaction is supposed to have been. I've been respectful and stated my opinion. I don't really get why that should be a problem for anyone. As far as I'm concerned we all want the same things basically but we just have different ideas how to achieve them. I'm trying to debate those ideas when they come up because I think they're important and I want the world to be a better place. I think I have that in common with almost everyone here and that's why I come here. I've been here on and off for quite some years and seen lots of big conversations happen. It shouldn't always be or feel the same here: it would die. The world is changing and so are some of the conversations people are having about women's rights.

I liked a pp's suggestion that you start a socialist feminist group here on mumsnet. That's a great idea and by the looks of these threads you'd have loads of takers.

No problem. Just found it ironic.

Yes, perhaps when I've solved my created-by-the-right- immediate housing crisis, I'll consider doing that.

FWIW, BlackWave, I hear you. I really do. As much as the things that have shifted in the last couple of weeks have been brilliant, they have been bloody hard won, and they really should be a sodding baseline decent reality.

I'm not satisfied with the situation for women and general safeguarding, and I want the resurgent feminist movement that has been germinated through all this to really have a lasting impact, and that is very tall order.

Keep your head up. This will never be done and dusted, but by 'eck we won't quit either.

Thanks, Floral.

What did you find ironic though BlackWave? Please explain/quote my "strong" reaction that you found so ironic. Do you perhaps have me confused with someone else?

@queenofknives

What did you find ironic though BlackWave? Please explain/quote my "strong" reaction that you found so ironic. Do you perhaps have me confused with someone else?

Nope, and nope. It's clear enough as is. Thanks for your input.

Nope, and nope. It's clear enough as is. Thanks for your input

Hear you on this, why not just answer?

BlackWaveComing:

Yes, perhaps more productive for others, but it wouldn't have answered the two questions I wanted to ask.

But the problem with this is that it requires that everyone thinks and understands as you do to answer the question to your satisfaction.

Some of us dont see what you see. I've looked at the no comment thread, and in fact I was going to start a thread on it because of the implications for GC feminists that someone on a private facebook group can report you to your employer and get you sacked.

But you only want to see it is terms of homophobia. So nobody can answer your question unless they interpret everything from your rather lofty position of being able to detect under everything, things that people dont think they are saying!

I haven't been on mumsnet for years, and I can categorically say that in terms of feminism it has very little to do with the feminism I found through women's liberation. But that doesn't stop me from interacting with others and on occassion disagreeing.

But what I dont demand is that everyone must totally align with my view of the world.

This is a "feminist" board. There is no one feminism. You want it to be socialist feminist. Well sorry you cant have that because socialist feminism is ony one strand of feminism. (And from reading mumsnet long before I signed up it always seemed pretty middle of the road to me, hardly left wing. I've seen more left wing comments on some of the tv threads than on FWR.)

Your questions aren't anything other than one doesn't everybody think like me?

I dont think this board is any different than any of the feminist groups I am on on facebook. You might share being gender critical, but bring in another issue such as Palestine and division immediately appear. As they do here.

There is a strange authoritarain streak in some socialist feminists, where they seem to think their role is to point out the errors in everybody else's views.

Like WPUK saying they were organising a Women's liberation Confernece, which clearly they didn't, because a Women's Liberation Conference would have been made up of self selected workshops put on by grassroots and local women's groups. Nobody would presume to speak from the platform and no self respecting Women's Liberationist would sit meekly in rows being talked down to.

Instead they put on, a classic socialist feminist event, where a rigid agenda made up of centrally approved speakers were given a voice. And anybody who quesitioned them was ignored.

Is this what you want? That you layout the issues that should be discussed and the manner in which they should be discussed?

Nobody can answer your quesiton unless they happen to think and perceive the world as you do.

It's interesting that you interpret asking questions as 'a demand'.

Plenty of people did answer my questions.
Which were, because you've reshaped them to suit your own prejudices, am so alone in sending a rightward shift (no) and where can I go to chat leftist feminism if I want a break from the right (answered via PM).

*am I alone

@BlackWaveComing Your response to me here exemplifies some of the reasons why women like me have been alienated from the left in recent years. Making stuff up to try to discredit a woman rather than dealing with (or even just ignoring) her actual arguments. Unspecified accusations of some kind of wrongdoing but never any proof given. I've been respectful and open in my contributions. I just haven't agreed with you, that's all.

@Quaagars

Nope, and nope. It's clear enough as is. Thanks for your input

Hear you on this, why not just answer?

Can't be bothered. I'm getting ready to go out. Don't fancy a back and forth. Too pissed off by finding yet more anti-women attitudes on yet another thread here this morning. If that's what 'diverse' means to some ppl, I don't have much to say to them.

[quote queenofknives]@BlackWaveComing Your response to me here exemplifies some of the reasons why women like me have been alienated from the left in recent years. Making stuff up to try to discredit a woman rather than dealing with (or even just ignoring) her actual arguments. Unspecified accusations of some kind of wrongdoing but never any proof given. I've been respectful and open in my contributions. I just haven't agreed with you, that's all.[/quote]
Lol

I think BlackWave has said that her questions were answered. Unless I've misunderstood. Did she bring up the 'no comment' thread (started by someone with a posting history of being antagonistic fwiw)? It's late, I'm not scrolling back tonight to find out. Besides, I don't think she has said she expects only left wingers to comment on FWR, just that she feels there has been a shift, which I agree with.

Now, that may be to the good, in terms of succeeding in the very specific issues at hand wrt the most recent fights. But it's a reasonable conversation to have, going forward, if you view your commitment to women through a more socialist lens, whether or not that can find support, especially when traditional 'left wing' groups and orgs seem to have left women behind.

None of this has to be divisive, and I really don't think she has sounded antagonistic. Tired, maybe, but I can definitely identify with that.

For clarity, laughing at the idea I have any responsibility for m/c women putting their weight behind Tories. They chose that all on their own. If they feel a bit defensive about it, not my problem.

*Can't be bothered."

That and the fact that you are lying.

Well the proof is there if people want to go and look for themselves.

So nobody can answer your question unless they interpret everything from your rather lofty position of being able to detect under everything, things that people dont think they are saying!

Ohhh come on. late (early?) so can't be arsed but no at least try and hear others lol.
@BlackWaveComing I'm with you here I think, not much point engaging further with others as I've engaged enough on these boards to start off from a discussion viewpoint to know sometimes. it's beyond that.
Sometimes (me anyway) just needs to say alrighty then and leave it lol

Tired, maybe, but I can definitely identify with that

Oh yes.
Has a different viewpoint.
Bless, must be tired and not know what talking about.

@queenofknives

*Can't be bothered."

That and the fact that you are lying.

Well the proof is there if people want to go and look for themselves.

Seriously. Give it a break.

Given the number of bad faith assumptions made about me/my motives in asking the question, I've been pretty civil. I'm done now. Your defensiveness is yours to deal with.

@Quaagars

So nobody can answer your question unless they interpret everything from your rather lofty position of being able to detect under everything, things that people dont think they are saying!

Ohhh come on. late (early?) so can't be arsed but no at least try and hear others lol.
@BlackWaveComing I'm with you here I think, not much point engaging further with others as I've engaged enough on these boards to start off from a discussion viewpoint to know sometimes. it's beyond that.
Sometimes (me anyway) just needs to say alrighty then and leave it lol

I don't think you are, lol, I think you think I'm a frightful transphobe.

Must be doing something right if the left thinks that, and the right thinks I'm a TRA 😁

I don't think you are, lol, I think you think I'm a frightful transphobe

I'm not sure of your stance on trans rights as your name doesn't stand out to me, , but surely that doesn't mean I can't agree with you on other things?

@Quaagars

I don't think you are, lol, I think you think I'm a frightful transphobe

I'm not sure of your stance on trans rights as your name doesn't stand out to me, , but surely that doesn't mean I can't agree with you on other things?

We probably do agree on some things. Most people can find issues in common. I am sure we'd find more than one.

I'm fully terven though, fyi, so heads up, you might not want to be too supportive.

Lol.

I'm fully terven though, fyi, so heads up, you might not want to be too supportive.

I don't get this - just because I'm not "fully terven" as you say. means I can't agree on other stuff feminism wise?

Does anyone want to give some examples of anti-women attitudes on here?