Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

Stripes, it depends what you mean. I find posts about WDIT and the bubbling critique whenever someone brings up a woman focused topic quite Anti-Woman. There was one a few days ago about maternity and the campaign to stop women being left to labour alone because of Covid, and there was much poo-poohing of it being an issue there.
A number of times there will be decided scorn for the idea of not giving a hoot what a man's opinion is on any given topic because 'we need allies' and we'll never convince everyone we're not rabid man haters if we don't. Shit, I even got told a few months ago what a terrible person I am for not caring if men had orgasms.

Horses for courses, I know full well not everyone here is of the same mind. That's a very good thing, of course it is. But it's precisely because we are not an exclusively feminist or female space that it takes a bit of energy to keep the focus on women, because we live in a default-men world.

Well, I agree on not caring about appealing to the men. We are never going to have any kind of sensible discussion if we are all imagining ourselves under some imaginary male judgemental gaze like the Eye of Sauron.

What is WDIT and bubbling?

We are never going to have any kind of sensible discussion if we are all imagining ourselves under some imaginary male judgemental gaze like the Eye of Sauron

Very true

@Quaagars

I'm fully terven though, fyi, so heads up, you might not want to be too supportive.

I don't get this - just because I'm not "fully terven" as you say. means I can't agree on other stuff feminism wise?

No, we can.

But generally the non-tervens shun the tervens. I guess I was giving you the chance to do so 🙂

I’m a socialist, working class and very gender critical (which I always thought was an essential criteria for feminism, but there you go...) and keen on free speech. I think there are a fair few right wingers on FWR, but feminism has always been a broad church (and that’s as it should be- we are united as women, we don’t have to agree on everything)

You’ve summed up my outlook too, Themarzipandildo, except that I haven’t noticed a lot of rightwing commenters here — more now-homeless leftie feminists like me.

Blackwavecoming, you sound tired and dispirited. Don’t give up on Mumsnet. I always feel my batteries recharged on FWR threads. The topics are often enraging, of course, but I find the conversations helpful.

These are terrible times for women, and I would never have believed our rights could be demolished so suddenly and violently. But we are seeing signs of progress against the new misogyny.

I agree that the wider political scene is pretty dire. We desperately need a strong leftwing opposition to the neoliberal idiots now in charge.

Women Do It Too. And bubbling is me using colourful language to describe critique, similar to you alluding to the Eye of Sauron as a simile, I presume for the 'default-male' I described. And if it was meant to be somewhat dismissive of the notion that women and society as a whole are socialized to prioritize men automatically, then you've kind of just illustrated my point.

Thank you goosefoot

homeless leftie feminists like me.
And me. I haven't moved anywhere but the left doesn't want me; the trade union movement doesn't want me. So here I am.

I'd not come across the WDIT acronym - it's a counterpart of NAMALT, I suppose. But having been alerted to it I think I've spotted another thread where this is in play.

No I wasn’t trying to be dismissive. I was agreeing with you.

@Stripesnomore

No I wasn’t trying to be dismissive. I was agreeing with you.

Fair enough. Forgive the sharpness, I've a lot on atm, and probably shouldn't be allowing myself to get distracted by MN, because I won't be giving my A game to anything!

If you start from the premis that "Working Class Feminism" is of the left ... then you mistake "traditional feminism" & "The Working Class" ...that "Socialist Feminism" is based on a Marxist Critique and as such from that perspective, you will indeed view the boards as "suddenly" bringing in a more "Conservative" view points.

What you fail to see is that "feminism" and "feminist action" is not and never was the sole domain of the left, infact "The Left" throughout history had been no friend to "feminism" nor "Female Working Class" & I say this as a leftist working class feminist who supported Labour for 30+ Years and watched "crumbs being thrown" at Labour Feminists to appease.

Labour issues more anti feminist licences for Female & Child Sexploitation than the "Cons" ever did! The lack of nuance in political theory & reality these days ... sticks in my craw!

When is it going to get through to the "left" that those who are voting right in current 2020's are "Counter - Revolutionary Working Class! More afraid of leftist "Identitarianist Revolution" than poverty! Identitarianism has caused more grief historically to Working Class folk than any other "ideology" & "Conservatives" offer across the board a sense of a more "Traditional" values, values that can be challenged at grass roots over time. The left however are focused on "Using" the Working Class" while at the same time feeding middle class lefty feelings & globalisation. Globalisation HAS FAILED THE WORKING CLASS! Identity FAILS THE WORKING CLASS! RACE THEORY FAILS THE WORKING CLASS!

And just to point out a little FACT! Those WORKING CLASS IN THE U.K. who are countering " Labour Identitarianism" on the ground ARE INCREASING BLACK WOMEN!

I could go on but nuance isn't part of modern political or feminist discourse these days. But feminism is the realm of all Women, it should transcend party politics and identity because it is about the plight of 51% of the human species and her needs! 👍

is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist

Haven’t read the rest of the thread but how can you be a feminist and pro-genderism? Surely they sit on opposite poles?

I'd describe myself as centre-left.

I actually am gender critical but definitely not trans-phobic.

I would say I have seen a bit of an influx of quite right wing posters - I actually noticed more because of their views on the Coronavirus threads because I don't follow the trans posts here much anymore.

Partly because some posters (in the minority but very vocal) do stray from gender critical, thoughtful and considered posts that still consider the best balance of rights overall into anti-trans.

Which is a shame because it taints the whole discussion and forces people to extremes of views which is never helpful.

Haven’t read the rest of the thread but how can you be a feminist and pro-genderism?

That would be liberal feminism, the definition of which is - if men say it's okay to believe in it, then we believe in it too.

It's pathetic.

I don’t consider “women do it too” or “not all men are like that” or listening to men’s opinions to be “anti-woman”. You can be pro woman without tearing down and excluding all men. In other words, being pro woman does not have to consist of being anti-man. It’s not a zero sum game.

We will never have an equal society if we think feminism is about tearing down men and ignoring what their half of the population thinks because they have a penis. That just furthers division.

@PlanDeRaccordement

I don’t consider “women do it too” or “not all men are like that” or listening to men’s opinions to be “anti-woman”. You can be pro woman without tearing down and excluding all men. In other words, being pro woman does not have to consist of being anti-man. It’s not a zero sum game.

We will never have an equal society if we think feminism is about tearing down men and ignoring what their half of the population thinks because they have a penis. That just furthers division.

I think it's more that those things have bugger all to do with feminism. I'm not remotely interested in 'tearing men down'. I am interested in promoting women's rights. There's a difference.

I’m not tearing men down or refusing to listen to the opinion of a particular man. I just have a focus on women’s rights and don’t think there is an exclusively male group perspective that requires their specific input.

Getting irritated on threads about rape when people zoom in and say women do it too! You're sexist! Gotcha!

Is hardly tearing men down, surely.

'Women do it too!!' I wouldn't class as anti woman as such, but definistely not feminist. We know twomen do it (rarely). Obviously. The women do it too thing just derails any convo about..well whatever the subject was IMO. I tend to just ignore it these days as otherwise it goes on and on, ands in a NAMALT, you can''t generalize!!! when..for example saying male violence is a problem is NOT the same as saying all men are violent, and I think those saying NAMALT know this too, deep down, if nothing else. I actually half 'used this' as a way of seeking decent male friends, just bring up the topic of male violence, and if they get hugely defensive, I tend to avoid, where many men will agree without defensiveness. I tend to take defensiveness to discussion of male violence as admission of guilt in a way, which might be wrong but, hey ho.

I see a lot of dickpandering these days, when that seemed rare a year or so back. I do think this is more that the reputation TRAs give FWR kind of attracts people who are not feminists..who then will often go onto centre males in everything as default, as I used to admittedly before my eyes were opened. Such people do seem to flounce a fair bit when women stand up and say 'no, fuck all to do with trans anything really, everything to do with WOMEN' as apparently thats sexist and such. But yes, have seen a fair few like that.

I think a lot of women, and I definitely include myself in this cohort, spend a large portion of their lives with no idea of how unconsciously they push women off centre in favour of men. It's often very subtle because it's so ingrained.

Which is why those of us who quite consciously and deliberately push against that conditioning look like we're saying outrageous and shocking things, because even other other women aren't used to women being a sole concern for anyone.

It's a hard thing to maintain, but I do think it's important consciousness raising work, and I'm too old and ragged to give much of a crap if I don't come over as nice anymore.

I think a lot of women, and I definitely include myself in this cohort, spend a large portion of their lives with no idea of how unconsciously they push women off centre in favour of men. It's often very subtle because it's so ingrained.

Yes I agree with this. I still have to consciously work on it at times as my default, even after many years, is still to centre males. I have found myself going down the 'what about the men!' route a few times, but I tend to(when not tired and medicated anyway) read over my posts and it kind of hits me then so I will think more, and watch the convo rather than posting my original thoughts. And often when I am back to centreing women, my answer is literally the opposite to my 'gut' was. Its hard. I know this.

In real life convos this makes me come across a bit incoherent at times, as you cannot just press the delete button, and ed up totally contradicting your original view just minutes later then trying to explain WHY you have flipped 360 in a few sentences!

NRatched, I feel your pain there. I'm a good communicator with the written word, but I still get flustered and blindsided far too easily in speaking. I suspect it's because I don't always pause before speaking and am one of those people who feel a responsiblity to speak and ease an awkward silence. I should work harder on that.

I wasn’t referring to any posters here regarding anti-man and tearing men down. But rather other threads where someone has made a sweeping generalisation that is factually not true. I have then, posted the actual facts, which then gets me accused of being MRA, anti-woman, doing a WDIT or NAMALT or “whataboutery”. When I’m not injecting any of that into the thread from nowhere, I’m simply correcting a false statement further up the thread with the actual facts. It gets annoying. But I am hoping it will happen less often now we have the quote function.

For example, this has happened when posters have written nonfacts like (paraphrasing from memory)-
“All domestic abuse is done by men so they don’t need shelters”.
“You can’t sexually assault a man if you’re a woman, it’s impossible”
“Men are never afraid walking the streets at night, they don’t know what it’s like to feel unsafe”
“No mother is going to abuse her own child, it’s always the father.”