Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

@Goosefoot

The traditional left wing is socially conservative, so I'm not sure t's clear what you are looking for.

I would say that what you are seeing is in part a realignment of feminist thought, or maybe a sort of refining. Certain elements that were generally assumed or just seen as natural bedfellows are being re-examined in light of where they have led, some of those things were criticised by social conservatives all along so there is now this interest in looking at those arguments again, trying to see what was missed, and why, and excising what was toxic. And then there are spaces for new thinking.

Free speech and examination of orthodoxies is one area where a lot of feminist though had become weak and it's become evident how dangerous that was in the last 10 years, how vulnerable it became. So it makes sense that it's become very much of interest and that as a result many feminists are looking at other assumed truths of feminism with a more critical eye. You hear women here every week saying that they used to consider themselves good leftist progressives but now realise they were simply going along with whatever was supposedly the correct way to think.

All ideologies go through periods like this and they can be really invigorating for them. And if they don't, they degenerate.

Blaming women for their children's mental illness is not 'examination of an orthodoxy'. It is the orthodoxy. It's heterodox to challenge that view.

Pushing other women to vote right is not 'challenging the orthodoxy. Unless expecting the free market to solve women's growing rates of poverty and homelessness, for example, is supposed to be some new, exciting and promising premise! Which we both know it isn't.

Yes, I'm a leftwing feminist and I agree that more posts lately seem to lean right. You're not imagining it----A wave of them came around the time all those groups closed on Reddit. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I figured some of those posters from closed groups came here.
I love this board but I wish there were a lot of other GC feminist forums out there to join as well.

I'd expect a feminist, whomever she personally votes for, to understand that of course w/c and poor women will vote for parties which lean left as these are the only parties prepared to address women's housing/poverty etc.

This has not necessarily been my experience. I’m not entirely sure we can even talk about a working class any more in the old-fashioned sense.

Poor people often vote in ways which might be seen as against their own best interests by commentators. The old-fashioned workers and unionists might well be left voters, but that’s not a given.

My grandparents, as an example, were as working class as they come, but always voted Liberal, because they were conservative people, a bit afraid of what they saw as socially disruptive ideas.

In the Trump’s supporters are a large group of people who have suffered hugely at the loss of traditional industries and manufacturing. The left have supported globalisation, perhaps to the benefit of wider economies, but certainly to the detriment of many communities. The environmental movement has a bigger benefit for all of us, but if you’re struggling to support a family on a miner’s wages, closing the local coal mine is not seen as a benefit. Many of those people support Trump because they hate the Left, it’s as visceral as that.

The experience of poverty may not be the path to enlightenment you imagine. Many people aren’t interested in politics and vote as their families voted. And many people believe that authoritarian governments are safer; the strong hand on the wheel idea.

I also think that identity politics has intensified the ideological gaps between left and right governments. In the past, conservative governments have seen social responsibility as a core value.

We talk about the right wing government now as if it was identical with American evangelism, but that’s not necessarily the case. Roosevelt was a Republican, as an example.

The same ideological shifts which have driven us to individualism, where we feel driven to nail our personal identity to our ever more lonely masts, have corrupted politics as well, so that the centre no longer holds.

I believe the women of FWR are grappling with some very fundamental issues about the silencing of women’s voices; the elision of women’s bodies; the policing of gender stereotypes and the loss of our ability to name ourselves. And that in a connect of ongoing violence against women and girls the world over.

It’s not a question of left wing or right wing women, because it’s become very clear that neither will pay more than lip service to women’s rights.

Many women come to FWR because they’ve experienced an injustice or had a moment of revelation. That doesn’t mean they are ideologically pure feminist thinkers. Certainly few of us are untainted by normative thinking. But we learn together, we test and discard concepts. Perhaps blaming mothers for ROGD is wrong think, but how are women to challenge their own thinking if their forums demand purity of concept before they’re allowed to speak?

TL:DR Yeah. Nuh.

Blaming women for their children's mental illness is not 'examination of an orthodoxy'. It is the orthodoxy. It's heterodox to challenge that view.

Here is the thing - whether a position is orthodox or heterodox tells you fuck-all about whether it is true.

Many ideas are considered orthodox by one faction and hetereodox within another, or their social acceptance flips. That doesn't change reality.

Has the change in parenting that has gone on over the last 20 years affected children in a way that has contributed to RODG? That's a valid question, it could be the case, and where is our headspace if we won't ask the question because it might seem to line up with a generalised statement that we don't like about mother's being responsible for kids mental issues?

We won't ask if it's true and examine the case for it because we don't lie the answer? That's a dead ideology, an intellectually bankrupt ideology, and one that will soon have no relevance if it has even a shred left now.

Interestingly, it's the kind of thing a lot of feminists have been complaining about with trans rights activists and progressives more generally - they won't think honestly and accurately and deeply about the issues because the answers might not be compatible with their little gods. If feminists seem less likely now to engage in that sort of behaviour themselves, perhaps it is because they have some level of self-awareness.

An ideology that won't examine possible truths because they sit uncomfortably with it's own orthodoxies and assumptions is intellectually and morally dead.

As far as poor and working class women will vote on the left, that's just evidently not true.

@Goosefoot

Blaming women for their children's mental illness is not 'examination of an orthodoxy'. It is the orthodoxy. It's heterodox to challenge that view.

Here is the thing - whether a position is orthodox or heterodox tells you fuck-all about whether it is true.

Many ideas are considered orthodox by one faction and hetereodox within another, or their social acceptance flips. That doesn't change reality.

Has the change in parenting that has gone on over the last 20 years affected children in a way that has contributed to RODG? That's a valid question, it could be the case, and where is our headspace if we won't ask the question because it might seem to line up with a generalised statement that we don't like about mother's being responsible for kids mental issues?

We won't ask if it's true and examine the case for it because we don't lie the answer? That's a dead ideology, an intellectually bankrupt ideology, and one that will soon have no relevance if it has even a shred left now.

Interestingly, it's the kind of thing a lot of feminists have been complaining about with trans rights activists and progressives more generally - they won't think honestly and accurately and deeply about the issues because the answers might not be compatible with their little gods. If feminists seem less likely now to engage in that sort of behaviour themselves, perhaps it is because they have some level of self-awareness.

An ideology that won't examine possible truths because they sit uncomfortably with it's own orthodoxies and assumptions is intellectually and morally dead.

I couldn't have said it better. I think (for me personally, anyway) the reason that it may seem more right-leaning currently, is because of what the left have become. Shutting down debate, cancel culture and wokeness are not helping any of our issues, as women specifically, but as a society on the whole. I would consider myself a traditional feminist, and that does seem to align more with socially Conservative views. The Liberal feminists that now seem to dominate the media and have the loudest voices are the one shouting that TWAW, and are pro porn and pro sex work. This isn't a feminism I can get on board with, so if that means I appear to lean right then so be it. But more importantly as the PP above has pointed out, we simply need to be havjnb conversations in order to find truth, it doesn't matter whether that ultimately leads to a more right/left lean, it's about resolution of these important issues.

@Wanderingstars4238

Yes, I'm a leftwing feminist and I agree that more posts lately seem to lean right. You're not imagining it----A wave of them came around the time all those groups closed on Reddit. Maybe it was a coincidence, but I figured some of those posters from closed groups came here. I love this board but I wish there were a lot of other GC feminist forums out there to join as well.

Well, at least I'm not alone in seeing it.

One asking why any sensible woman is sticking with the left, and going off on a pages long communism-tangent, and one lauding an article that blames mothers (and teachers) for 'coddling' their children as a cause of ROGD. So-called feminists agreeing that yes, these vulnerable teens and children are 'attention seeking'.

Tbh, I'm here to see different views presented and argued. I am glad there are right-leaning posters on this board. I am also glad there are leftwing posters. I would hope that the left can challenge the right on certain opinions and vice versa. Your post has made me think, actually - are teachers and mothers being unfairly criticised?

However, I tend to see more posts blaming social media and the influence of Stonewall / Mermaids for ROGD. Schools come in for their share of criticism for promoting the affirmation approach, which I think is fair - do you disagree?

I haven't been aware of many posts where the mother gets the blame for their child's gender dysphoria.

@Goosefoot

As far as poor and working class women will vote on the left, that's just evidently not true.

Yes, true. Some women do consistently vote against their own economic interests. But it's no surprise that some of us don't.

I'm a socialist and I do agree that this board leans right. I think the opposite of the poster above about reddit though - I think the reddit gender critical forum tended to be much more left wing. It was also more diverse, with more young people and posters from many different countries. I'm fucking furious they shut it down.

However, I have to admit that on a lot of feminist issues the left has not covered itself in glory of late - gender ID is the obvious one, but also I think that the left has really struggled to know how to deal with the oppression of women in other cultures, while not wanting to be colonialist about it.

I am pretty tired of hearing people blame the left for gender ID though. I don't see any evidence that people's views on gender ID are correlated much with where they are on the right left spectrum - I agree with Maya that it's much more about how authoritarian you are, which is a separate axis.

@EdgeOfACoin

One asking why any sensible woman is sticking with the left, and going off on a pages long communism-tangent, and one lauding an article that blames mothers (and teachers) for 'coddling' their children as a cause of ROGD. So-called feminists agreeing that yes, these vulnerable teens and children are 'attention seeking'.

Tbh, I'm here to see different views presented and argued. I am glad there are right-leaning posters on this board. I am also glad there are leftwing posters. I would hope that the left can challenge the right on certain opinions and vice versa. Your post has made me think, actually - are teachers and mothers being unfairly criticised?

However, I tend to see more posts blaming social media and the influence of Stonewall / Mermaids for ROGD. Schools come in for their share of criticism for promoting the affirmation approach, which I think is fair - do you disagree?

I haven't been aware of many posts where the mother gets the blame for their child's gender dysphoria.

Just the latest in a very long history of mother-blame.

I can't think of any traditional feminism that leans socially conservative, btw. Maybe lean-in style feminism? It's just not a conservative project, and it doesn't sit comfortably within right wing economic or social theory.

We talk about the right wing government now as if it was identical with American evangelism, but that’s not necessarily the case. Roosevelt was a Republican, as an example.

Not sure which one you meant but for the record, Theodore Roosevelt was a Republican. Franklin Roosevelt was Democrat. Both were US Presidents.

@Goosefoot

The traditional left wing is socially conservative, so I'm not sure t's clear what you are looking for.

I would say that what you are seeing is in part a realignment of feminist thought, or maybe a sort of refining. Certain elements that were generally assumed or just seen as natural bedfellows are being re-examined in light of where they have led, some of those things were criticised by social conservatives all along so there is now this interest in looking at those arguments again, trying to see what was missed, and why, and excising what was toxic. And then there are spaces for new thinking.

Free speech and examination of orthodoxies is one area where a lot of feminist though had become weak and it's become evident how dangerous that was in the last 10 years, how vulnerable it became. So it makes sense that it's become very much of interest and that as a result many feminists are looking at other assumed truths of feminism with a more critical eye. You hear women here every week saying that they used to consider themselves good leftist progressives but now realise they were simply going along with whatever was supposedly the correct way to think.

All ideologies go through periods like this and they can be really invigorating for them. And if they don't, they degenerate.

This. I'm neither left or right wing, just trying to work out what's going on.

I think it remains broadly leftist/liberal. I would say members have above average rates of higher education - which correlates with liberal social and political views. Actually, there’s probably a resurgence in socialist feminism, viewing women as an oppressed sex class, that has become apparent.

Just to note though, there were 2 Roosevelt’s and one was republican and one (FD) was democratic.

I've also noticed the right-wing slant on this board. However partly I think that's because the 'left' has come to mean 'woke'. This is nonsense. I am left and not woke. I'm in The Labour Party most people in my local branch are GC - but not anti-trans. However I suspect it suits the right's massive propaganda machine to keep pushing this narrative. Some 'left' figures also do themselves and the movement no favours - but that's also true of the right. They somehow get away with it - I wonder why.

Yes, true. Some women do consistently vote against their own economic interests. But it's no surprise that some of us don't

That is so patronising.

For what it's worth I think there is a higher than average number of left leaning posters on this board and MN in general, what has happened in recent times is that the misogyny in the left has gone full throttle leaving women politically homeless.

yoghurt weaving

Thank you very much for getting my day off to a wonderful start.

I think you've nailed it bigvig - it's about authoritarianism versus anti-authoritarianism now. And those don't align with traditional ideas about left and right. I got my ideas about freedom of speech from the left but now I'm told that wanting freedom makes me right wing. The categories have crumbled and honestly I don't know what I am. Someone who wants freedom, peace, justice and equality has no one to vote for.

@PronounssheRa

Yes, true. Some women do consistently vote against their own economic interests. But it's no surprise that some of us don't

That is so patronising.

For what it's worth I think there is a higher than average number of left leaning posters on this board and MN in general, what has happened in recent times is that the misogyny in the left has gone full throttle leaving women politically homeless.

Agree. I’m left wing on every issue & I certainly don’t forget that it was the Tories with Maria Miller who were all set to wave self ID through until women pushed back very hard

But Labour/Lib Dem/green have all happily almost gleefully thrown women under the bus with this. They haven’t even paused for thought, straight under the wheels & then just in case you may be having doubts the likes of Angela rayner & Layla Moran got back in the bus & reversed over women a few more times just to be sure.

So as Pronouns said I’m politically homeless.

Centrists are a thing. Whqt you are seeing is more of them rather than “right wing”.

Having read the 'special' thread I think you're exaggerating the mother-blaming OP. It's more a discussion about young people's pressures and behaviours and I can't see lots of posters blaming mothers in any particular way.

The Nolan chart/political compass has been around for decades - acknowledging there’s a left/right spectrum and an authoritarian/libertarian spectrum- so you get a grid. Loads of examples on google images.

www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

So you won’t get a definitive ‘left wing’ view.

I’d still maintain the higher educational attainment of mumsnetters and the fact it’s membership is predominately women is going to mean statistically they are more likely to be left/liberal because that accords with the national demographics. It’s maybe not a pure socialist economic position that is being argued - but again in terms of the national demographic, that’s not surprising either - not many people in the U.K. are that socialist!

Interesting comments here — as always on FWR. And interesting subject, though I don’t think FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism.

I’m still a socialist, even if most of the Left apart from the communist party has gone batshit mad about identity politics (or still sane but not daring to speak out). My anger at the Left is because we deserve better from it. My fear is that we’re doomed to endless Tory government because most other parties have lost the plot.

Apart from someone banging on about communism yesterday, I haven’t noticed a lot of rightwing ideology on FWR.

I don’t think it’s unfair to say some ROGD teenagers may be partly attention-seeking — why wouldn’t they? I also recognise the pressure on them from friends, social media and pornography. What I oppose is adults affirming this and leading the kids into medicalisation etc. I’m not blaming the kids or their mothers.

BlackWave, I’m not certain what you mean by a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues. I don’t want my post deleted! but could you explain that a bit more please?

I am left and I follow in a long tradition of left working class women and men (since the formation of the Labour Party).

I think the 'my gang' mentality is not helpful. When I'm in discussion, I have always valued a diversity of opinion. It helps clarify my thoughts, it shows me where I am. If there weren't a diversity of thought here (and tbh I think we're a bit short of WC women's views and input) we would be in exactly the same bubble as the hard left.

If we had a majority WC women on this board, the board would be centre.

Give women a break, they're not all feminist who come to this board, they come here to learn about the current 'hot topic'

Feminism has always had an element of naval gazing (as all political left ideologies), we love it because we can sharpen our arguments, our wits and feel superior (snobbery is another lovely trait we have). There's a strong element of that on the left.

I've been there for a very long time, from burning my bra, to putting metaphorical firecrackers in my sailing club to get women confident and sailing, instead of pandering to their partners. These things change thinking.

Call people out, but try not to feel too morally superior to accept poorly thought our or uneducated (that is NOT a slur) views, explain it.

I have learned to value women on the right because they too are fighting and that's a first for me, so I am becoming a grown up.