Some questions for the socialist/left feminists here

[BlackWaveComing]

It's a free world, apparently, but this isn't a thread seeking input from conservative or right wing GC's. So

Otoh, if you are a feminist whose feminism encompasses but is not confined to GC in the context of transgender issues, and you have a socialist or left political alignment, I'd like your input. I suppose it's an AIBU for you. ( For context, I appreciate the role of social conservatism as a balancing force, and have defended FWR from accusations of transphobia on many occasions. Posting here for years, other names. You can PM me if you want my other names for veracity.)

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily.

Today I note the patriarchal notion that mothers are to blame for their children's mentally illness being trotted out. ROGD children, subject to an individualist corporation mediated social pressure being called attention seekers. This veers towards t-phobia, imo. And a complete lack of recognition that feminism is for poor women too, a cohort to whom the economic right is no friend.

Am I unreasonable in my assessment that yes, FWR is sliding into anti-genderism, anti-feminist conservatism?

And regardless of whether I'm wrong or right, is there a place for international w/c socialist feminists to discuss gender, among the many other issues facing women and children?

TIA.

@Butterer

I get what's happened with the misunderstanding, I think - yep, I was looking for an alternative to the phrase " t**f exclusionary ".

It was the first word I wanted to replace, the entire phrase I was looking for was "[replacement phrase] exclusionary"

I thought 'GC exclusionary' might be it.

OK, we're getting there now I missed the second 'exclusionary' in your point.

I get such a kneejerk reaction to the T phrase that I missed your actual point

I will cease mentioning a previous thread to avoid deletion of this one.

Just come back to add, and it has already been said, in a way.

Why was it necessary to start a thread effectively blaming women who in your view dont hold to the standards you think feminism should have?

Wouldn't it have been more productive to have just started a thread saying what you wanted to talk about, ie the idea that feminism should be centred in socialism?

I suspect there would be many coming on to say they would want to but are effectively excluded because of not just official Labour Party (and must sub sets of socialism apart from the Morning Star) but the extremely hostile and threatening behaviour towards GC feminists.

But it must be possible to talk about the ideas / politcal analysis of why in your mind socialism and feminism are linked without getting bogged down in a long list of those claiming to be socialist betraying women.

But if you fear you cant do that because most women will highlight this betrayal, then as a socialist isn't it time to think what can be done by those who are socialist to ensure that in the future other socialists dont continue to actively attack women protecting women's rights.

You cant blame women if they have started to believe, which they hadn't previously, that it is hard to be GC and be part of any left wing party. Your thread could have been about why are so many women alienated from socialims as practised (by men). Just look at the thread about a leading Labour Party woman holding a workshop on misogyny with Stonewall FFS. Talk about a slap in the face.

So why not turn your negativity around.

For instance - right here on FWR OP could start a socialist feminist party!

What could be more right wing than buying and selling human beings?
I can’t let this go. There is zero correlation between political wing and abolition/pro slavery.
In the US, the abolitionists were Republicans (right wing)
In the U.K., the abolitionists were Independent Party (centrist)
In France, the abolitionists were Revolutionaries for a Republic (left wing).

In addition, surrogacy is not the buying and selling of a human being any more than IVF or artificial insemination.

In addition, surrogacy is not the buying and selling of a human being any more than IVF or artificial insemination.

Sure, it's rental rather than buying of a woman.

@Asterion I don’t assume GC means right wing. In fact in my CLP there seems to be quite an overlap between being GC and being a far left anti-Semite. But the dominance of GC feminists on here has definitely pushed MN more to the right, because all the sneering at ‘woke’ does that.

Sure, it's rental rather than buying of a woman

If she dies, does that still count as rental?

@charlestonchaplin

Sure, it's rental rather than buying of a woman

If she dies, does that still count as rental?

Quite... (I was being sarcastic - the other poster seemed not to be thinking about the woman at all)

I align with those who centre women, be they on the left, right, centre or couldn't give a fuck about politics. I don't align with those who don't.

I was starting to write an essay-length comment, FloralBunting, but you've summed it up in two sentences. Thanks!

Butterer, you know what fucks me off so richly about bringing up transmen in this context is that it's so often done as a gotcha saying 'should this person be in a female rape crisis service then?'

I recall having a conversation with a TW about it where that was the approach and they were very taken aback by me saying that obviously, although there would be some specialist issues, a TM would have more in common, in terms of the consequences of rape, with another woman than a TW would, and I'd be perfectly happy to support specific services for specific female needs like that.

I always have time for people who care about female people's needs and rights, however those female people identify.

@Quaagars

I feel like FWR is losing a connection to feminism, and becoming a free speech board with an upsetting number of anti-feminist and anti- w/c tropes appearing here, largely unchallenged, daily

YANBU - there's a lot of anti women (as in women who aren't middle class, white, the "right" kind of woman ) homophobic stuff and it does go by largely unchallenged, and when it is challenged you're likely to be "shouted down".
I've been on MN years and I find the seeming shift to the far right alarming.

Don't put words in my mouth - I do not notice the board turning 'far right' - conservatives and free speech liberals are not far right.

@stumbledin

Just come back to add, and it has already been said, in a way.

Why was it necessary to start a thread effectively blaming women who in your view dont hold to the standards you think feminism should have?

Wouldn't it have been more productive to have just started a thread saying what you wanted to talk about, ie the idea that feminism should be centred in socialism?

I suspect there would be many coming on to say they would want to but are effectively excluded because of not just official Labour Party (and must sub sets of socialism apart from the Morning Star) but the extremely hostile and threatening behaviour towards GC feminists.

But it must be possible to talk about the ideas / politcal analysis of why in your mind socialism and feminism are linked without getting bogged down in a long list of those claiming to be socialist betraying women.

But if you fear you cant do that because most women will highlight this betrayal, then as a socialist isn't it time to think what can be done by those who are socialist to ensure that in the future other socialists dont continue to actively attack women protecting women's rights.

You cant blame women if they have started to believe, which they hadn't previously, that it is hard to be GC and be part of any left wing party. Your thread could have been about why are so many women alienated from socialims as practised (by men). Just look at the thread about a leading Labour Party woman holding a workshop on misogyny with Stonewall FFS. Talk about a slap in the face.

So why not turn your negativity around.

For instance - right here on FWR OP could start a socialist feminist party!

Yes, perhaps more productive for others, but it wouldn't have answered the two questions I wanted to ask.

Don't put words in my mouth - I do not notice the board turning 'far right' - conservatives and free speech liberals are not far right.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth - I was agreeing with what you're saying and also adding my thoughts too.

@TheMarzipanDildo

I’m a socialist, working class and very gender critical (which I always thought was an essential criteria for feminism, but there you go...) and keen on free speech. I think there are a fair few right wingers on FWR, but feminism has always been a broad church (and that’s as it should be- we are united as women, we don’t have to agree on everything)

Fair enough.

@Quaagars

Don't put words in my mouth - I do not notice the board turning 'far right' - conservatives and free speech liberals are not far right.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth - I was agreeing with what you're saying and also adding my thoughts too.

Ok, well I disagree with you. If I thought this was a far right den, I would be long gone.

@queenofknives

I feel like this thread is quite divisive. Anyone can be for women's rights. We can all contribute to various discussions and agree or disagree about various things without it being a problem. I don't think people should have to subscribe to any particular political philosophy in order to be considered to bring value to discussions. A diversity of viewpoints keeps a movement alive. I don't think there's any need to create these divisions between us when generally people get along just fine here, one way or another. It's healthy to have differences of opinion and experience and I don't think anyone should try to claim FWR for themselves when it's clear its success depends on our diversity.

It's a wee bit ironic to be for diversity of thought in the context of having a...strong...reaction to a woman asking two questions, the answers to which I've been relatively open and civil.

@DonkeySkin

I grew up in a left-wing family (Dad an ex trade union official, Mum a second-wave feminist activist, both parents active in the Australian Labor Party) and, until a few years ago, I took it for granted that the left = good, right = bad.

I'm still left-wing on economic issues, but I no longer feel any solidarity with the left per se, and I feel that the traditional left/right division is inadequate for dealing with the challenges of the 21st century, especially the huge disruptions to the social and political fabric caused by the internet and other tech.

The left has become increasingly authoritarian over the past 5-10 years, and is now actively hostile to free speech and open debate. This is most obvious on the trans issue, but I find many left-aligned people (which is most of my family and friends) these days to be extremely self-righteous and close-minded on a variety of subjects. Many act as if they are in possession of the 'revealed truth' about everything, and anyone who disagrees with them is a person of bad character and little worth. There's a performative nature about it too, as if everyone is anxious to make sure that everyone else knows they have the Right Opinions. It's not an environment conducive to creative thinking, or independent thought of any kind. Most disturbing of all, evidence and truth doesn't seem to matter much to large swathes of the left.

I think one reason why we're seeing more right-leaning posts and links here is because centrists and the centre-right are starting to take the threats to free speech and free thought seriously. So if you want open discussion of the trans issue, or any number of issues, that's where it's going to be coming from. I would love for that to change, and for left-wing institutions and publications to open up, but at the moment it feels like most are intimidated by the zealotry of the woke.

I agree with the OP's assessment of the damaging effects of austerity on women and their children, and I understand why you would want to make this your political priority. It's still my number 1 issue at the voting booth too. But it's interesting that, for instance, the push for UBI seems to be coming from centrists or even free-market capitalists (e.g. Elon Musk). I trust our tech overlords on nothing, but I think that engagement with centrists and the centre-right (not the far right obviously) could be fruitful on a wide range of issues affecting women and children. Safeguarding is another one that pp have mentioned.

I also can't ignore that there is a febrile, irrational atmosphere on the left that reminds one of the Cultural Revolution. Ultimately it seems as if many current leftists, especially the young, are hostile to the principles of democracy, free speech, private property and equality under the law. And we know that many want to abolish the criminal justice system altogether. Worse, old-school liberal/leftists in positions of institutional power seem incapable of standing up to them. It doesn't bode well for the future of democratic societies, and women here are right to be concerned about it. It's not a matter of being a selfish Tory who only cares about lower taxes, nor is it about being obsessed with trans issues to the detriment of everything else. Democracy, the rule of law and free speech are not side issues - if we don't have them we don't have anything.

I don't disagree with any of this. Just see a lot of collateral damage to the welfare of vulnerable and marginalised women coming from the right as the price for this assumed defence of all that is right and good from women who can perhaps afford to pay the price.

Idk. Maybe I am beginning to think that the name for our sex class is a better price to pay than the lives, say, of disabled women under Tory or Tory aligned governance.

We're in a global recession which, unlike the 90s, is impacting heavily on 'pink collar' professions. I'm not sure where the optimism comes from that the right - fans of austerity over Keynesian policy - will be looking after women in all this.

when generally people get along just fine here, one way or another

Really?
See, that's open to interpretation.
Only seems to be when all of the same viewpoint that happens.
Don't have a voice that goes "against".
If you do you'll see what I'm on about.

@tinierclanger

I’m a left wing feminist and I don’t feel welcome in FWR as I’m not GC. It’s a shame but I generally just don’t bother with it any more. Happy to leave it to be the niche board it’s become.

I'm not asking snarkily, but how can you be a feminist without including a critique of gender in your practice? It's pretty foundational.

@Quaagars

when generally people get along just fine here, one way or another

Really?
See, that's open to interpretation.
Only seems to be when all of the same viewpoint that happens.
Don't have a voice that goes "against".
If you do you'll see what I'm on about.

I agree partially on this...having had this rather bruising experience! I honestly expected the few socialist women to come on here and say YABU or YANBU and here's a place socialist feminists chat online. Not the defensiveness that ensued.

However, I also know from reading you here and others who agree with you this place is just T-word Nazis, that you will see a challenge to explain your idea as hostile and 'no other opinions allowed'. When some of the time, it's just that you can't or won't support your argument other than with appeals to female socialisation.

I've said all along that the minute the data and evidence for including males with GD in the female category is strong, reliable, and replicable, showing benefit to the male mental health and no detriment to any female, I'll reconsider. That evidence doesn't currently exist, and you guys are rejected for that, not because it's fun to run you off.

Not sure what my "strong" reaction is supposed to have been. I've been respectful and stated my opinion. I don't really get why that should be a problem for anyone. As far as I'm concerned we all want the same things basically but we just have different ideas how to achieve them. I'm trying to debate those ideas when they come up because I think they're important and I want the world to be a better place. I think I have that in common with almost everyone here and that's why I come here. I've been here on and off for quite some years and seen lots of big conversations happen. It shouldn't always be or feel the same here: it would die. The world is changing and so are some of the conversations people are having about women's rights.

I liked a pp's suggestion that you start a socialist feminist group here on mumsnet. That's a great idea and by the looks of these threads you'd have loads of takers.