Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

@WarOnWomen

Lots of people would access unisex loos: younger men and women don't seem to care as much, non-binary, TM and TW.

Please could you define "non-binary"?

Are such people of zero biological sex?

@CloudyVanilla

It's not realistic though is it. And given their small proportion of the population I feel it would be even more of a source of abuse for them. I can fully imagine a load of transphobic weirdos hanging around any toilets specifically designated for trans gender people. Just single occupancy toilets would be a better solution surely.

I think single occupancy toilets are probably the way forward, and I also think that possibly there should be regulations in new builds to ensure safety and as far as possible design out potential problems caused by spycams, or upskirting and voyeurism.

I guess one problem is that physical space is very much a limitation in many places, especially older buildings. And whilst I don't know much about it, I'm aware a lot of toilet design is driven by flow, that is what's the best way to get the most people in and out of there quickly, because a lot of people's biggest concern is not having to queue for ages, this is espcailly important in place like theatres. I think that's why there's been some what seemed perverse and unpopular decisons, with urinals ppping up all over the place in some new gender neutral toilet design. The architects are working to formulas about what combination of toilet types maximises the potential flowthrough.

I would use a unisex loo. They are really useful when you are caring for somebody of the opposite sex.

That doesn't mean that single sex loos shouldn't also be available.

@BalhamWoman that's an interesting source thank you. I do find if notable though that the actual question of public toilets is left out

A public toilet can also be a public changing room at times.

Regardless, you know the principle is the same. That principle is the question about should people who are of the male sex class ever be in the private spaces designated for the female sex class.

Or, as the eternal "Staniland question" poses:

Transwomen have never used men's toilets?

Given Travis Alabanza was kicked out of topshop's changing room for being very obviously male, I don't believe that to be true. In fact, I can think of several times transwomen have been kicked out of women's facilities. So I would assume that most of the time, they use facilities which align with their sex without issue. As I have never read a single newspaper report to suggest otherwise.

@BalhamWoman no sorry just to make clear, I think there's quite a difference personally between toilets and changing rooms, mainly because changing rooms are usually fully communal, as in the actual act of changing occurs in the same space, visible to each other.

Public toilets are quite different in that respect. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous; this thread is specifically about toilets after all.

Trans women have never used men's toilets so there's no direct evidence. There's no direct evidence that a non trans woman using men's toilets would be at risk either for the same reason. But I think common sense suggests both would be at risk. There is ample evidence that trans women face sexual violence from men at comparable rates, or possibly even higher rates to non trans women so it seems reasonable to assume that a trans woman using the men's toilets would be at least as at risk as a non trans women using the men's toilets.*

We are not 'non trans women' we are women. Do try to be less obviously goady.

Fionne Orlander and a few other self identified transwomen have a long history of using male facilities and documenting it. They haven't encountered any issues.

In the UK anyone identifying as a transwoman is not facing higher rates of sexual violence than women. This is patently obvious and pretty offensive to suggest it's the case.

Lol BalhamWoman I cant as I can't get my head around it. I don't know any to ask either. I should have said people who identify as non-binary but I was being lazy.

Something that men fail to grasp is that women in UK of today had mothers, grandmothers and great-grandmothers who fought two world wars. No other women outside of Europe can make such an historic claim. We women in UK of today learned from those women who are our fore-mothers. Those women said "do not fuck with us!".

Today's UK women are saying the same.

Also the use of toilets is more relevant to safety because their use is far more prevalent and they are used in far more situations. There are only a handful of situations where changing rooms are used (swimming pools, clothes shops, gyms etc) whereas naturally toilets are everywhere people go. So ensuring everyone is able to access them safely is of particular importance but also logistically the biggest ball ache.

@CloudyVanilla Public toilets are quite different in that respect. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous; this thread is specifically about toilets after all.

Have you never been in a female communal toilet space where all cubicles are occupied and seen a woman change her clothes in the communal space outside of those cubicles?

You've possibly led a very sheltered life?

@OvaHere a bit strong to suggest the pp was being goady. It's a perfectly fair point

@BalhamWoman literally what??

What a strangely specific and increasingly aggressive like of enquiry you are taking.

I think it is a perfectly reasonable assumption to say that in general, public toilets with single occupancy cubicles are quite different in both practical design, location and usage than changing rooms. I find any claims to the contrary quite startling and confusing.

[quote CloudyVanilla]@BalhamWoman literally what??

What a strangely specific and increasingly aggressive like of enquiry you are taking.[/quote]
"Aggressive like [sic] of enquiry?"

Not at all. You may have just not have had similar experiences in the private space of females as others who have had such an experience and who may have engaged in such themselves.

[quote CloudyVanilla]@OvaHere a bit strong to suggest the pp was being goady. It's a perfectly fair point[/quote]
Defining us as 'non trans women' when we already have a perfectly good name for ourselves (women) is not a fair point. I am a woman because I have a female body not because I lack a male one. If you think it's a fair point I assume you'd be just as happy to have transwomen referred to as 'non women'!

I mean the point the pp was making was fair so disregarding it solely on wording seems a bit unfair is all.

@CloudyVanilla

I think it is a perfectly reasonable assumption to say that in general, public toilets with single occupancy cubicles are quite different in both practical design, location and usage than changing rooms. I find any claims to the contrary quite startling and confusing.

The principle here is about the legal civil right in the UK to the private space for the female sex in many situations.

This civil right in law excludes all males of any description.

When we have sorted out the nightmare issues that face those for whom disabled toilets are essential is when we should be thinking about this issue.

Since lockdown my DF has become severely disabled. Amongst the pretty horrible experiences we have encountered in just the last few weeks, the very worst was the seaside town. One of the newly rejuvenated Victorian resorts. Disabled toilets clearly frequented mostly by drug dealers and users. The first we used involved really embarrassing waiting for the druggies to come out. The second one had a council employee clearly employed mostly for the purposes of discouraging the drug users. Absolutely horrific.

That's without the National Trust experience or the motorway service station

When we can provide enough decent and dignified toilets for those who really need them is when we can discuss what we'd 'like' to have

No other women outside of Europe can make such an historic claim.

A bit off topic, but they were called World Wars for a reason - they didn't just happen in Europe - and women who didn't live in parts of the world affected by either war had plenty of other things to worry about.

@CloudyVanilla

Well it's horses for courses then, maybe I'm just too introverted but I don't feel super comfortable in the communal areas of toilets. Not overly so but I definitely prefer it when I go to a small shop that has a single toilet. Perhaps I am an outlier. I do think it is presumptuous though to assume that all women would want or need support with feminine issues in those situations, or that those occurrences are frequent.

Although I do agree I have spent many a night in a toilet on a night out talking to other women. Perhaps you're right and I've just never found myself in one of those situations in public.

I agree with you. I much prefer single occupancy toilets with no communal area. I'm 61 and I'm afraid the sisterhood of the toilet has completely passed me by. I'm not sure I'd have left a small child with a random stranger in a public loo just because she was a woman.

[quote BalhamWoman]**@CloudyVanilla* Public toilets are quite different in that respect. I wasn't trying to be disingenuous; this thread is specifically about toilets after all.*

Have you never been in a female communal toilet space where all cubicles are occupied and seen a woman change her clothes in the communal space outside of those cubicles?

You've possibly led a very sheltered life?[/quote]
Nope, not once. I'm 61 and I haven't led a particularly sheltered life.

@merrymouse

No other women outside of Europe can make such an historic claim.

A bit off topic, but they were called World Wars for a reason - they didn't just happen in Europe - and women who didn't live in parts of the world affected by either war had plenty of other things to worry about.

Perhaps I was not clear enough. My point was that our foremothers were most directly involved in both wars n terms of keeping the country going in various ways while most men were overseas. We women learned from them about the capability of women outside of the usual restrictive sex stereotypes imposed on them. UK women have, ever since, resisted being forced back into the "box" that men would wish to designate for them.

missproportionate I agree - but I also think that, because toilet provision is so inadequate, and because there needs to be a major investment in infrastructure, some of these problems like provision of 3rd spaces for people who can’t use single sex provision (including opposite sex carers) are manageable.

The thing that isn’t acceptable is pretending that either the status quo is adequate for people who need accessible toilets, or that there is spare capacity.

There are many parts of the world where women have to cope alone because the men have left.