Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Just a reminder of what still confronts the disabled ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54403479

@Clymene

Transwomen have never used men's toilets?

Given Travis Alabanza was kicked out of topshop's changing room for being very obviously male, I don't believe that to be true. In fact, I can think of several times transwomen have been kicked out of women's facilities. So I would assume that most of the time, they use facilities which align with their sex without issue. As I have never read a single newspaper report to suggest otherwise.

The fact that sometimes trans women have been kicked out of women's spaces does not mean they haven't been using them, and in fact the courts have backed them up: www.lawcentres.org.uk/policy/news/news/kirklees-law-centre-wins-landmark-transgender-discrimination-case

I've known lots of trans people over the years and all of them without exception used spaces inline with their aquired gender. And if you don't believe me ask a bloke how often they have come across a trans women in the mens.

[quote SerendipityJane]Just a reminder of what still confronts the disabled ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54403479[/quote]
Indeed. And some say the application for a GRC is arduous. They have no idea do they?

Many disabled people are now subjected to annual appraisal of their status involving serious medical and social invasion of their circumstance.

Imagine the furore if men were subjected to such an invasion of their circumstance for a renewal of their GRC status!

I've known lots of trans people over the years and all of them without exception used spaces inline with their aquired gender.

Can you point me to where women were asked if this was okay with us?

@OvaHere

I've known lots of trans people over the years and all of them without exception used spaces inline with their aquired gender.

Can you point me to where women were asked if this was okay with us?

Nothing more needs to be said really, does it?

Message from UK Women

I mean that doesn't mean the GRC process is not arduous. It sounds very long winded too.

Wtf does ‘acquired gender’ mean??? Please answer without recourse to sickeningly sexist stereotypes. Either way it’s impossible to change sex.

Fionne Orlander and a few other self identified transwomen have a long history of using male facilities and documenting it. They haven't encountered any issues.

Yet ... I do worry about Fionne although in a lot of cases I guess it depends on the type of places you go. I doubt a trans women would be that at risk using the mens in an art gallery or posh restuarant, but in a dodgy nightclub, blokey pub or deserted bus station late at night it would be a different story.

In the UK anyone identifying as a transwoman is not facing higher rates of sexual violence than women. This is patently obvious and pretty offensive to suggest it's the case.

Why is it patently obvious? Pretty much every trans women I know has been sexually assaulted often on several occassions. As someone fairly gender fluid myself, who has at times presented very femme, it happened to me several times, including when I was younger in men's toilets. Sexual violence towards trans women is not just a problem in the states, it is just as endemic as sexual violence towards women generally in the UK and probably everywhere else.

My young DS is disabled, and believe me its shit at the best of times getting access to an accessible toilet, once the impatient parents and the nappy changing fathers who don't want to use the nappy changing area in the men's toilets, have finished.

Disabled parking spaces are a joke, when every other person can now get a blue badge. Try wheeling a wheelchair out into moving traffic before you give them to people who have mild disabilities.

@CloudyVanilla

I mean that doesn't mean the GRC process is not arduous. It sounds very long winded too.

It is nothing compared with what anyone with any kind of disability has to go through to be legally recognised as disabled.

In the UK anyone identifying as a transwoman is not facing higher rates of sexual violence than women. This is patently obvious and pretty offensive to suggest it's the case

Who said this? I can't find this in previous posts, I must keep missing it.

Regardless, thats a very sweeping statement; to whoever said it, if you are going to assert this please provide your sources. At the very least they are assaulted at much higher rates than men.

@OvaHere

I've known lots of trans people over the years and all of them without exception used spaces inline with their aquired gender.

Can you point me to where women were asked if this was okay with us?

I'm not sure you could ask women and expect a completely united view but the British Social Attitude survey did ask and the majority of women had no probably with trans women using women's toilets.

"For both sexes a majority say they are comfortable with a transgender person using a public toilet according to their gender identity (Table 5). Women tend to be more comfortable with this than men, with 72% of women saying they are “very” or “quite comfortable” with a transgender woman using a female toilet, compared with 64% of men saying they are comfortable with a transgender man using male toilets. Around 1 in 6 (14% of women, and 15% of men) say they are not comfortable with this."

www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/media/39147/bsa34_moral_issues_final.pdf

@SpartacusAutisticus it sounds okay written down in those bullet points but 2 years worth of evidence of living as the opposite gender plus a diagnosis of gender dysphoria sounds like it could be quite difficult to acquire. Not saying it necessarily should be easier but 2 full years worth of evidence does sound a lot.

@jj1968 excellent thank you for that source, I did expect that to be the case.

Why is it patently obvious? Pretty much every trans women I know has been sexually assaulted often on several occassions. As someone fairly gender fluid myself, who has at times presented very femme, it happened to me several times, including when I was younger in men's toilets. Sexual violence towards trans women is not just a problem in the states, it is just as endemic as sexual violence towards women generally in the UK and probably everywhere else.

Even if I took your assertion on face value why are women expected to resolve this by making ourselves less safe? Male on male violence is a problem to address with men. Yet day after day you come here to argue the toss with women. Are you spending as much time on male dominated forums telling them to #bekind?

@CloudyVanilla

At the very least they are assaulted at much higher rates than men.

Please provide your sources for such a statement?

With regard to any statistics about so-called "transwomen" you might want to see:

transrespect.org/en/trans-murder-monitoring/

@BalhamWoman I be already provided a summary discussion from a study on the NCBI website that is pretty regularly accessible. I'm on my phone so apologies for not linking but it is pretty easy to find by googling "statistics trans women sexual violence". @jj1968 has also posted a study too.

@BalhamWoman sorry your link is not loading correctly for me I can only go to the home page. It seems to be a website monitoring rates of murders of transgender people. Do you mind explaining the relevance of that in this context? The link may have been about SA but I don't know as I can't load it unfortunately

I'm not sure you could ask women and expect a completely united view but the British Social Attitude survey did ask and the majority of women had no probably with trans women using women's toilets.

Women's groups have conducted our own surveys on this and when it's pointed out that the majority of transwomen retain a penis the answer is very different.

Most of the public think that transwoman = Hayley Cropper from Corrie (played of course by a female actor)

The current reality couldn't be more different.

Also I asked where women were asked and consulted before any of this took place which is different to a survey after the fact conducted by a fairly partisan organisation (the new head of Stonewall was formerly CEO of Natcen).

[quote CloudyVanilla]**@BalhamWoman* I be already provided a summary discussion from a study on the NCBI website that is pretty regularly accessible. I'm on my phone so apologies for not linking but it is pretty easy to find by googling "statistics trans women sexual violence". @jj1968* has also posted a study too.[/quote]
I'm in UK. There are no such incidences officially recorded by our police services.

@BalhamWoman but hard numbers would mean nothing in terms of proportionality. If there are say 100 transgender victims of sexual assault vs 100,000 female victims of sexual assault, proportionately these figures are the same if they are out of a population of only 1,000 transgender people vs 1 million women. Do you have any sources that say transgender people are not assaulted at a rate similar to or exceeding the rates that women are?

[quote CloudyVanilla]@BalhamWoman but hard numbers would mean nothing in terms of proportionality. If there are say 100 transgender victims of sexual assault vs 100,000 female victims of sexual assault, proportionately these figures are the same if they are out of a population of only 1,000 transgender people vs 1 million women. Do you have any sources that say transgender people are not assaulted at a rate similar to or exceeding the rates that women are?[/quote]
UK police service figures and Crown Prosecution Service figures are somewhat definitive, I think.