Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Well it's horses for courses then, maybe I'm just too introverted but I don't feel super comfortable in the communal areas of toilets. Not overly so but I definitely prefer it when I go to a small shop that has a single toilet. Perhaps I am an outlier. I do think it is presumptuous though to assume that all women would want or need support with feminine issues in those situations, or that those occurrences are frequent.

Although I do agree I have spent many a night in a toilet on a night out talking to other women. Perhaps you're right and I've just never found myself in one of those situations in public.

In my experience women seem to have a fair variety of opinions about toilets, compared to change rooms where there is more consensus, so I think you are probably right about that.

@BalhamWoman you have just said that crimes in the UK are not recorded to include information on transgender people. For clarity I also live in the UK. It's fair to say then that it is not possible for us to make comparisons for rates of violence or assault if we do not record those statistical details.

Even if I took your assertion on face value why are women expected to resolve this by making ourselves less safe?

I don't believe trans inclusion in toilets makes women less safe. As far as I know there has only been one reported incident in the entire world where a trans woman has assaulted a woman in a woman's toilet, and there's nothing to suggest that incident wouldn't have happened if toilets were more strictly gatekept on the basis of birth sex.

Male on male violence is a problem to address with men. Yet day after day you come here to argue the toss with women. Are you spending as much time on male dominated forums telling them to #bekind?

Realistically if 51% of the population have not been able to put an end to male sexual violence then how on earth do you expect 0.3% of the population to do it. Do you understand why this isn't really a satisfactory solution to trans women. That you are basically saying well if you don't want to get raped then just sort out male violence. If we could do that we wouldn't be having this discussion would we. This isn't some abstract debate for trans people. You are expecting trans women, trans children even, to place themselves at risk of sexual violence in the here and now, and shrugging your shoulders at any potential consequence. You're talking in some cases about people who have lived as women and been accepted as women for decades. People who might not even have a penis. Imagine what it would be like if someone said to you right, from tomorrow you've got to start using male spaces for some arbitery reason. And sorry if you get raped but you'll just have to convince men not to be rapists. Or campaign for an extra space. And I know you might baulk at that and think it ridiculous but do you think a trans woman who transitioned years ago would feel any less concerned then you might in that situation. Do you honestly think this is all about validation and not a genuine need to live safely and with some dignity?

The opposite of kindness is cruelty. I'd hope at least you could find some middle ground. By all means campaign for spaces policed by birth sex, but to just shrug off the potential consequences of that with well just go sort out male violence , not my problem, in my view goes beyind just resisting the socialised instinct to be kind and takes it somewhere very different. And it's why some people see aspects of the GC movement as a hate movement.

@DidoLamenting

I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women

Well she won't , will she ? Given they are all single occupancy rooms.

They're accessible for DISABLED PEOPLE, you know because they can't access the facilities you can

I don't have any mobility issues but I'm entitled to use these toilets. Are you the sort of person who will challenge why I'm using them because I don't look disabled?

That’s not what she said - disabled means anyone with a recognised disability, be it physically apparent or otherwise.

@jj1968

Even if I took your assertion on face value why are women expected to resolve this by making ourselves less safe?

I don't believe trans inclusion in toilets makes women less safe. As far as I know there has only been one reported incident in the entire world where a trans woman has assaulted a woman in a woman's toilet, and there's nothing to suggest that incident wouldn't have happened if toilets were more strictly gatekept on the basis of birth sex.

Male on male violence is a problem to address with men. Yet day after day you come here to argue the toss with women. Are you spending as much time on male dominated forums telling them to #bekind?

Realistically if 51% of the population have not been able to put an end to male sexual violence then how on earth do you expect 0.3% of the population to do it. Do you understand why this isn't really a satisfactory solution to trans women. That you are basically saying well if you don't want to get raped then just sort out male violence. If we could do that we wouldn't be having this discussion would we. This isn't some abstract debate for trans people. You are expecting trans women, trans children even, to place themselves at risk of sexual violence in the here and now, and shrugging your shoulders at any potential consequence. You're talking in some cases about people who have lived as women and been accepted as women for decades. People who might not even have a penis. Imagine what it would be like if someone said to you right, from tomorrow you've got to start using male spaces for some arbitery reason. And sorry if you get raped but you'll just have to convince men not to be rapists. Or campaign for an extra space. And I know you might baulk at that and think it ridiculous but do you think a trans woman who transitioned years ago would feel any less concerned then you might in that situation. Do you honestly think this is all about validation and not a genuine need to live safely and with some dignity?

The opposite of kindness is cruelty. I'd hope at least you could find some middle ground. By all means campaign for spaces policed by birth sex, but to just shrug off the potential consequences of that with well just go sort out male violence , not my problem, in my view goes beyind just resisting the socialised instinct to be kind and takes it somewhere very different. And it's why some people see aspects of the GC movement as a hate movement.

There’s been several incidents here in the UK, let alone world wide. Regardless of that, many females, me included, do not want male bodied people in their single sex spaces. As is the law!

And it's why some people see aspects of the GC movement as a hate movement

It doesn't really matter does it. The law is laid out and clear. If someone has a GRC, or they are actively proven to be working towards that, then generally, although not always, they can use the facilities of the opposite sex. The rest, cannot. They use the facilities of their own sex That's it. It's not a woman's problem.

@jj1968 That's really well said. I just want to say I totally agree with you and support you. I do see, much to the vitriolic disagreement of others, the compete lack of empathy from others so frequently on these boards, and the complete overstatement of the perceived threat of transwomen. I get torn apart for saying it every time but I think you're absolutely right.

the complete overstatement of the perceived threat of transwomen

I don't really know why this debate continues. The decision has been made. Just ask Liz if youre not clear. And there's been plenty of documented cases of where transwomen have assaulted women. The rate of male pattern violence does not reduce simply because someone identifies as a woman. This is why women have sex segregated space. And the law supports this. So yeah, it's over. No debate, as the activists used to gleefully say. It's over.

That’s not what she said - disabled means anyone with a recognised disability, be it physically apparent or otherwise

Er no, she did not say that. What she said was They're accessible for DISABLED PEOPLE, you know because they can't access the facilities you can

I'm perfectly capable of accessing the standard facilities but using the accessible ones is legitimate for me. That poster backtracked on what she said but her post is perfectly clear- the accessible toilets, according to her are for people "who can't access the facilities you can".

[quote BalhamWoman]@CloudyVanilla

You may want to research the number of women and men assaulted and by whom compared with the number of so-called "trans" people who have been assaulted. This should be easy to track given the logging of such incidences by our police services in UK who, as you will be aware are very pro recording incidents about "trans" people.[/quote]
There is no logging of offences against trans people. Hate crimes are logged, but this is only when there is a specifically transphobic element. In most cases they would be unlikely to include sexual assaults unless that assault was perceived to be motivated by transphobia. There are two sets of crime statistics published, one based on police reports and the Crime Survey of England and Wales which is a large scale survey. In both sets of statistics crimes would simply be recorded against the sex people identified as.

@jj1968

Even if I took your assertion on face value why are women expected to resolve this by making ourselves less safe?

I don't believe trans inclusion in toilets makes women less safe. As far as I know there has only been one reported incident in the entire world where a trans woman has assaulted a woman in a woman's toilet, and there's nothing to suggest that incident wouldn't have happened if toilets were more strictly gatekept on the basis of birth sex.

Male on male violence is a problem to address with men. Yet day after day you come here to argue the toss with women. Are you spending as much time on male dominated forums telling them to #bekind?

Realistically if 51% of the population have not been able to put an end to male sexual violence then how on earth do you expect 0.3% of the population to do it. Do you understand why this isn't really a satisfactory solution to trans women. That you are basically saying well if you don't want to get raped then just sort out male violence. If we could do that we wouldn't be having this discussion would we. This isn't some abstract debate for trans people. You are expecting trans women, trans children even, to place themselves at risk of sexual violence in the here and now, and shrugging your shoulders at any potential consequence. You're talking in some cases about people who have lived as women and been accepted as women for decades. People who might not even have a penis. Imagine what it would be like if someone said to you right, from tomorrow you've got to start using male spaces for some arbitery reason. And sorry if you get raped but you'll just have to convince men not to be rapists. Or campaign for an extra space. And I know you might baulk at that and think it ridiculous but do you think a trans woman who transitioned years ago would feel any less concerned then you might in that situation. Do you honestly think this is all about validation and not a genuine need to live safely and with some dignity?

The opposite of kindness is cruelty. I'd hope at least you could find some middle ground. By all means campaign for spaces policed by birth sex, but to just shrug off the potential consequences of that with well just go sort out male violence , not my problem, in my view goes beyind just resisting the socialised instinct to be kind and takes it somewhere very different. And it's why some people see aspects of the GC movement as a hate movement.

Pretty much everything you've said there women have been subjected to by the transactivist movement ten fold.

I used to think there could be middle ground and that I should be kind but I've seen far too many violent, rapey death threats and actual violence aimed at women from people who call themselves transwomen. Plenty of women have reached the same conclusion as me and if you're looking for someone to blame for that look closer to home at your fellow trans activists.

Where does the law say that? The actual law not Stonewall law.

I assumed it has to be covered under the gender reassignment bit in the equality act where someone needs the two years to live as the opposite sex in order to get the GRC. I might be wrong though. Happy if I am tbh.

@KarenCaron

the complete overstatement of the perceived threat of transwomen

I don't really know why this debate continues. The decision has been made. Just ask Liz if youre not clear. And there's been plenty of documented cases of where transwomen have assaulted women. The rate of male pattern violence does not reduce simply because someone identifies as a woman. This is why women have sex segregated space. And the law supports this. So yeah, it's over. No debate, as the activists used to gleefully say. It's over.

No decision has been made. The law is not changing. The vast majority of legal opinion agrees that in most cases trans people have the legal right to use spaces inline with their gender with some permitted exemptions in certain circumstances. The Women's Minister, who works directly with Liz, confirmed this in the Lords last week and acknowledged that this was on the basis of Self ID. So yeah it's over, Truss could have introduced clear legislation to keep trans women out of women's spaces as she had hinted at doing but in the end chose not to.

Thanks @CloudyVanilla by the way.

It's not!

It's not what? They do have the two years or they don't?

jj1968 women still have the right to sex segregated space. Self IDing into something with no commitment is fine. It does not however give people who are self IDing a legal right to women's spaces. This is clear. And it always was. The law isn't changing because self ID is not a legal protection under the equality act. Soz.

There is no law that mandates that

Good.

I'm confused by the various assertions I've seen on a few threads now that transgender people have no right to use those spaces either. I've always been under the impression, and it seems backed up by various sources online, that transgender people have for at least a decade been able to choose which sex based toilets they use based on how they identify. I don't know why on here only it seems to be asserted that it's not the case? Are you looking at a particular source?

Right but in practice it does happen and there is room in law to allow for it. So it's not like there is no law around it like I see it implied here.

accessible toilets are for those who physically cannot use normal cubicles

• wheelchair users
• the blind
• parents with disabled children
• disabled adults with their carers
• those with dementia who need the extra privacy

everybody else cane fuck off out of them IHO
being Trans does NOT make you need an accessible toilet

and by definition NOBODY SHARES THEM