Irish women, have you seen this?

[SecondRow]

The HSE removed the word "woman" from their CERVICAL screening pages
I stumbled across this tweet
twitter.com/Salwicklow/status/1305967737563422720?s=20

politely asking them to put woman back in, alongside trans men and trans women, who both get their own special mentions, but they have brushed off the woman who made the original request and are no longer replying.

Here's the HSE pages
www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

And here's Aoife Martin - no cervix skin in the game inviting followers to mock women for wanting the 99.9% of people who need cervical screening to be named as such by a health service that already has some serious catching up to do before women can believe it has their best interests at heart.

twitter.com/aoifemrtn/status/1306339571790159872?s=20

I simply don't want me or any other female therapist to be used as that legal test case.

I actually have no problem with male clients and am lucky to have never had any dodgy ones but my very small business (not full time) was based on friends of friends, so a very narrow focus.

But I know of enough horror stories to be wary of the general public and I want to retain the right to refuse service to someone I'm not comfortable with without getting sued for discrimination.

What upsets me about this is that we try and teach young people, especially girls that it is okay to say no if they feel uncomfortable in a situation. In recent years Universities have tried to push awareness on consent.
But, in this area or in single sex spaces, women and girls are being told it is wrong to feel uncomfortable. They are transphobic, they are TERFs, that consent does not matter.
Yet the wokerati cannot see the hypocrisy of it all.

@swingsandroundabouts1

What upsets me about this is that we try and teach young people, especially girls that it is okay to say no if they feel uncomfortable in a situation. In recent years Universities have tried to push awareness on consent. But, in this area or in single sex spaces, women and girls are being told it is wrong to feel uncomfortable. They are transphobic, they are TERFs, that consent does not matter. Yet the wokerati cannot see the hypocrisy of it all.

I fully agree with this @swingsandroundabouts1 and have had this circular argument with teen DD and friends.

Exactly swingsandroundabouts1

I now think I'm lucky that I don't have daughters, just sons.

twitter.com/NWCI/status/1312680355401433088?s=20

As predicted on this thread for weeks now. The NWCI can't move forward with ANYTHING without permission from their minders.

@ForeverFaithless

I don't like that this excludes women who have had their cervix removed but it seems to be the only way not to get sued.

It may also exclude transmen but my understanding is that many would not be able to avail of acupuncture /reflexology /massage (possibly other alternative therapies) as taking medication can be seen as a serious contraindication to treatment.

The page in question does include specific information for trans men and for "If you have had a hysterectomy" though. That information is clear - it's the initial "who needs to read this page in the first place" that's the issue.

Roisin Ingle sharing the Jenni Murray article was mentioned above - here's the communications officer for the Rotunda saying: "Daily Mail article about someone with TERF-y views talking about being 'cancelled'?"
twitter.com/CormacMcAdam/status/1312693304946036738

It's interesting notyourhandmaid... One wokebro, and he's not getting any support... Nobody on Irish Twitter criticises Roisin, do they?

notyourhandmaid

The wording wasn't in reference to the original post but in general offering therapy /personal services where we don't want to include men if we we feel uncomfortable doing so.

@ForeverFaithless

notyourhandmaid

The wording wasn't in reference to the original post but in general offering therapy /personal services where we don't want to include men if we we feel uncomfortable doing so.

Oh, sorry! I'm an eejit. I see what you mean - how do you phrase it to cover yourself. That seems really stressful, I'm sorry.

If it is waxing could you say "waxing of the vulva area"?

Unfortunately, the GRA actually changes a person's sex, so if a transwomen gets a GRC, they become a member of the female sex. Quite an amazing scientific achievement really.

Yes but the Equal Status Act - updated in light of the GRA, and the GRA cannot "supersede" it because it's a different act on the statute book - is the equality legislation that forms the basis for discrimination cases.

Cosmetic services that involve physical contact are specifically allowed to discriminate on the grounds of gender. And since the ESA specifies that the grounds of gender has 3 categories (male, female, transgender person), then a cosmetic service like waxing can theoretically, legitimately restrict itself to just one of those 3 categories.

Theoretical so far, because no one has tested it yet. The existing barbers cases aren't a direct precedent for something like waxing because the nature of the physical contact is different in genital waxing and could draw on the "embarrassment in presence of other gender" clause in a way that cutting hair on the head would not.

And it wouldn't protect you from having to provide treatment to a transwomen with a GRC but without physical transition.

Not necessarily true. It might, because of the above exemption, but it will take a test case to establish.

I keep repeating that it needs a test case because I don't think it's helpful to catastrophise and give up before the battle has begun. A waxmyballs-type situation has the potential to be dismissed way in Irish law but it will take some unfortunate but very brave small business owner to fight it. It would be worth fighting, though, and I'd happily donate to a crowdfunder if a case came up.

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer, but the above is what I remember from a conversation with a friend who is. It would be good to hear the perspective of some other Irish legal bods on the issue.

@MarDhea
That's very interesting and provides some comfort. But if you can't ask if they have GRA, then it looks like you pretty much have to accept whoever turns up. Otherwise you risk being sued for embarrassing a transwoman.

Not necessarily true. It might, because of the above exemption, but it will take a test case to establish.

Interesting. The question then is whether sex and gender have an equivalence. So if you change your sex via the GRC, do you also automatically change your gender from transwoman to woman, for example, or are members of the female sex (as not defined by the GRA) transwoman female and woman female?

It's really all a linguistic mess, that unfortunately was not thought through before being legislated.

[quote swingsandroundabouts1]@MarDhea
That's very interesting and provides some comfort. But if you can't ask if they have GRA, then it looks like you pretty much have to accept whoever turns up. Otherwise you risk being sued for embarrassing a transwoman.[/quote]
If it's legal to have a policy of seeing a birth cert for all customers on their first visit then you couldn't be sued for embarrassing a transwoman. Although it would probably irritate the hell out of your regular customers and lose some of them.

But when you get a GRC you can have your birth certificate altered to reflect your new sex. While it may seem a linguistic mess I feel that the trans activists have had a huge influence in it. The conflating of sex and gender, the prohibition on asking for evidence of a GRC, the ease of self ID.
I remember there was an error in my marriage cert, a spelling mistake, and I had to go through hoops at the time to have it corrected.

But when you get a GRC you can have your birth certificate altered to reflect your new sex.

Yes, you do. But at least asking for a birth cert would mean male bodied people without a GRC couldn't avail of the service. It's a potential way around asking for a GRC, which is illegal.

Interesting. The question then is whether sex and gender have an equivalence. So if you change your sex via the GRC, do you also automatically change your gender from transwoman to woman, for example, or are members of the female sex (as not defined by the GRA) transwoman female and woman female?

In the barber test case with the transman, the judge ruled that it was discrimination on the gender grounds because the claimant was transgender. So it appears that the transman won via the "transgender person" category of gender, but (presumably because of the GRC) the comparison category was male gender. That is, there was no reason a barber couldn't offer a hair cutting service to a transman the same as to a natal man, so the barbers was found to have discriminated illlegally against the transman.

Trying to extrapolate that to a transwoman with a GRC showing up for a woman's salon for a Brazilian... Presumably the transwoman would occupy the "transgender person" category and the comparison category would be female gender. In this case, there's a strong reason of health and safety etc. why someone trained in waxing female genitals couldn't offer a waxing service to a transwoman the same as to a natal woman (idk much about it, but apparently quite different techniques are needed). There's also the additional embarrassment/privacy clause. It's tricky, but it would be difficult for a judge to use the same reasoning in a case like this as was used in the barber case.

Without a GRC, I don't think a transwoman has an equality leg to stand on... but can't be definite 🤷‍♀️

Trying to extrapolate that to a transwoman with a GRC showing up for a woman's salon for a Brazilian... Presumably the transwoman would occupy the "transgender person" category and the comparison category would be female gender.

You would hope. You're right though, it needs a court case to determine whether a practitioner is protected.

Interesting aside - I mistyped "though" in my last post and it autocorrected to thoughtcrime. Just saying.....

Ochon 😂 careful, now!

"That's very interesting and provides some comfort. But if you can't ask if they have GRA, then it looks like you pretty much have to accept whoever turns up. Otherwise you risk being sued for embarrassing a transwoman."

I think it is British law that you can't ask for the GRC but not Irish law.

"The person to whom the gender recognition certificate is issued shall not be required to produce it as proof of gender or identity for any purpose save as required by law."
No the act prohibits you from asking. You basically have to ass they have one.

*assume not ass

Ah crap, I need to re read the Act.