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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish women, have you seen this?

419 replies

SecondRow · 17/09/2020 08:23

The HSE removed the word "woman" from their CERVICAL screening pages Angry
I stumbled across this tweet
twitter.com/Salwicklow/status/1305967737563422720?s=20

politely asking them to put woman back in, alongside trans men and trans women, who both get their own special mentions, but they have brushed off the woman who made the original request and are no longer replying.

Here's the HSE pages
www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

And here's Aoife Martin - no cervix skin in the game Hmm inviting followers to mock women for wanting the 99.9% of people who need cervical screening to be named as such by a health service that already has some serious catching up to do before women can believe it has their best interests at heart.

twitter.com/aoifemrtn/status/1306339571790159872?s=20

OP posts:
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OchonAgusOchonO · 30/09/2020 23:41

@EarlofEggMcMuffin - The tone of the reply that you received, is one of "there there little girly, dont you be worrying about this, we know what we're doing".

Isn't it just. I haven't replied yet but intend to look at the sources they mentioned and go from there. Unfortunately for them, I understand how research works, I can interpret it unless the stats are exceptionally complex (not likely in this case) and am pretty persistent. If nothing else, I'll keep one of them busy for a while.

EarlofEggMcMuffin · 01/10/2020 00:57

Good woman Ochon Star I guessed you knew your way round research, by the way you dissected their "lost my homework" reply Grin.

SunsetBeetch · 01/10/2020 07:33

A new twitter account to follow, for those of you still bothering with twitter:

"We endure language that erases us & laws that fail to protect us. Female prisoners should NOT be exposed to predatory males.

We are not 'anyone with a cervix' as
@HSELive
tell us.

We are women. We will not be erased in language or in law.

#TheCountessDidntFightForThis"

twitter.com/TCDFFT/status/1311050466781016064?s=20

Irish women, have you seen this?
Runnersos · 01/10/2020 07:52

That's shocking. Clearly this person has a bias, and the public cannot have confidence their complaints are being listened to, when a person involved in the area of health information is openly sneering at genuine concerns of service users.
Can those making complaints to the HSE please use this screenshot

Runnersos · 01/10/2020 07:54

@ForeverFaithless

Same people sneering about how they are also going to change the radiotherapy info.
This screen shot. It did not attach to my post.
WiserOwl · 01/10/2020 07:57

I havent had a reply at all. @OchonAgusOchonO glad you are going to respond to their "there there girlie" response

SecondRow · 01/10/2020 08:10

Ochon, you are absolutely right to look at "references" they provide. They've been throwing out the same copy and paste reply for weeks now and those sources do NOT provide any evidence of what they say they do.

One is a "think piece" - authors' own words - about health inequalities with NO mention of gender neutral language. It's NOT research or evidence for anything remotely to do with language around single sex services.

See posts from @XXSex upthread, Saturday 19th Sept.

OP posts:
XXSex · 01/10/2020 08:53

And it’s completely gaslighting the women of Ireland to mention the Scally report in their reply. He mentions the WHO report once in his report and it’s to do with clear language being needed. FFS Angry

OchonAgusOchonO · 01/10/2020 13:55

www.nwci.ie/download/pdf/equal_but_different_final_report.pdf

I wonder have they carried out a gender impact assessment, as required by the equal but different report?

• Does the policy or service concern one or more target groups? Does it/will it affect the daily life of part(s) of the population?
• Are there differences between women, men and transgender persons in this policy field or service area (with regard to rights, resources, participation, values and norms related to gender)?

If the answer to these two questions is yes, then gender is relevant to the issue being examined and a gender impact assessment should be carried out.

Gender impact assessment is a tool that should be systematically built into all of the HSE’s activities and functions where there
is gender relevance. Gender impact assessment is a tool for comparing and assessing, according to gender relevant criteria, the current situation and trend with the expected policy or service. In carrying out a gender impact assessment, account will need to be taken of existing disparities between women, men and transgender persons using the following criteria:

• Participation: sex and gender composition of the target group and representation of women, men and transgender persons in decision-making positions

Key questions to address in relation
to service provision are:
• Do biological differences between women, men and transgender persons impact on their health?
• How do women’s and men’s social roles affect their health?

A framework for integrating gender equality in Health Service Executive Policy, Planning and Service Delivery Equal but Different | 45
• Do gender norms/values affect women’s and men’s health?
• How does access to resources impact on women’s and men’s
health and their ability to take up services?
• Are there certain groups of women, men and transgender persons that are not taking up services?
• Are women, men and transgender persons receiving the same quality of diagnosis of health problems?
• What are the main health risks identified for different groups of women, men and transgender persons and are they being addressed?
• What health outcomes result from the service provided?
• Resources: distribution of resources such as time, information, money, political and economic power, education and training, jobs and career positions, health care, housing, transport, leisure, childcare etc.
• Norms and values: how these influence gender roles, division of labour by gender, attitudes and behaviour of women, men and transgender persons, inequalities in the value attached to men and women, sex stereotyping etc.
• Rights: regarding direct or indirect discrimination, human rights, access to legal, political or socio-economic justice
In carrying out the gender impact assessment it will be necessary to:
• Assess the relevance of gender to the service or policy and how gender differences that exist can be acted upon. This requires a process of screening to identify if there is gender relevance and if there are implications for either the policy or the service being assessed.
• Identify where there is gender relevance and translate into service or policy interventions.
• Assess the evidence from consultations and the data gathered to identify gender differences or inequalities.
• Decide on the strategies and develop a plan to change the design or the delivery of the policy or service.
• Monitor the implementation of the policy or service.

OchonAgusOchonO · 01/10/2020 14:05

www.cervicalcheck.ie/screening-information/information-leaflets.137.html

Interestingly, the information leaflets in languages other than English are all for women.

SecondRow · 01/10/2020 14:29

That's a great FOI question Ochon!

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Runnersos · 01/10/2020 14:37

@OchonAgusOchonO

www.cervicalcheck.ie/screening-information/information-leaflets.137.html

Interestingly, the information leaflets in languages other than English are all for women.

Lol Funnily enough, I was looking at the HSE website to get information on an orthopaedic procedure for a relative. It mentions that it was a condition that affected women more than men. I know that they say they plan on moving all information to gender neutral. But the fact that cervical cancer was one of the first to be targeted makes you wonder why. Especially as they now are moving on to pregnant people in the radiography leaflets.
OchonAgusOchonO · 01/10/2020 14:54

My reply to the email from Cervical Check:

Many thanks for your reply.

However, I still have a number of concerns, particularly as you have not addressed all my questions.

I asked you to point me towards research you may have conducted amongst women with poor English language skills (who, incidentally, are not limited to those whose first language is one other than English) and those who have poor anatomical knowledge, to determine whether they recognised that the term “anyone with a cervix” applied to them. Can you clarify whether you have conducted this research and if so, point me towards the results?

I also asked, if you have not conducted this research, whether you intend to do so, particularly in light of the research conducted by Jo’s Trust in the UK (www.jostrust.org.uk/node/666780) which determined almost 50% of women surveyed did not know what a cervix is? Can you please clarify your position on this?

With regards to your statement “Measures needed to reduce health inequalities include, but are not exclusive to, Health Promotion activities in key populations where uptake is low; having communications materials translated into languages other than English; and using inclusive and accessible language in our communications materials.”, can you please clarify whether you have conducted research to determine whether your target audience find the language used to be accessible? I assume this research would presumably have been carried out as part of that gender impact assessment as per the HSE’s “Equal but Different” report, which requires addressing the question:

“Are there any areas of the policy or plan that unintentionally disadvantage different groups of women, men and transgender persons or negatively impact on different groups of women, men and transgender persons?”

If so, can you please point me towards that research? Additionally, as I stated above, many people with poor English language skills actually have English as a first language so accessible, simple, language is essential in addition to translating for those who do not have English as a first language.

I am also a little confused by the references you mentioned as informing your policy of gender neutral language (an aim I applaud, unless it leads to confusion). Neither the WHO document nor the Healthy Ireland document mention anything about using gender neutral language of the form you are using. Nor did Dr. Scully use the WHO document to advocate this form of language. Could you please clarify which parts of those documents you are referencing and how they informed your decision to use this language?

With regards to the HSE guidelines on “How to write about people”, they state “Use gender-neutral text wherever possible. Use ‘them’, ‘their’, ‘they’. Use common neutral alternatives, like ‘businessperson’ instead of ‘businessman.’” The guidance does not suggest making the language more complex and difficult to understand.

With regards to your statement that the material has been user-tested with a sample of the target audience, can you please tell me what form that testing took? Specifically, I would like to know the sample size, how the sample was selected, what demographics that sample represented and what type of testing was carried out, particularly in relation to the questions asked of the participants?

I would also like to reiterate that I am fully supportive of your aim to be inclusive of women, transmen and non-binary people who have need of your service. However, my concern is that the way you have done it is likely to unintentionally exclude an already disadvantaged subset of your target users.

3timeslucky · 01/10/2020 16:34

Excellent response OchonAgusOchonO

Runnersos · 01/10/2020 16:40

Excellent reply. At least you aren't making it easy for them.

EarlofEggMcMuffin · 01/10/2020 17:00

OchonOchon if you're ever in my patch of Ireland I shall buy you a bottle of your favourite tipple and would enjoy sharing it with you
(at the same time, I am looking narrow-eyed at my friends, and wondering if, in fact, one of them is you).

WiserOwl · 01/10/2020 17:28

Good response 👍👏

OchonAgusOchonO · 01/10/2020 17:36

@EarlofEggMcMuffin - Aw shucks Grin

MarDhea · 01/10/2020 17:45

@OchonAgusOchonO Likewise! Maith thú 👍

In the meantime, I hope you'll accept a virtual Ginin honour of all your hard work.

OchonAgusOchonO · 01/10/2020 17:53

Anyone who wants to nick any of what I've written, feel free.

They're not actually addressing the questions or concerns we have, so they more people bother them, the better.

They are required, under the HSE’s “Equal but Different” policy, to do a gender impact assessment and determine whether:

there any areas of the policy or plan that unintentionally disadvantage different groups of women, men and transgender persons or negatively impact on different groups of women, men and transgender persons?

The more people who ask to see the results of that assessment in relation to women with poor English skills (not just those with a different first language) and women with poor anatomical knowledge, the better.

WiserOwl · 01/10/2020 17:55

Will do thanks, if they respond to me. So far i just have the automatic response

OchonAgusOchonO · 01/10/2020 18:08

@WiserOwl - Will do thanks, if they respond to me. So far i just have the automatic response

HSE didn't get back to me at all when I contacted [email protected]. A bit ironic really, my say just went into a black hole. Shows how much respect they have for my say.

It was only when I emailed [email protected] that I got a response.

notyourhandmaid · 01/10/2020 21:18

@OchonAgusOchonO Thank you for that! Brilliant.

XXSex · 02/10/2020 11:29

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]**@WiserOwl* - Will do thanks, if they respond to me. So far i just have the automatic response*

HSE didn't get back to me at all when I contacted [email protected]. A bit ironic really, my say just went into a black hole. Shows how much respect they have for my say.

It was only when I emailed [email protected] that I got a response.[/quote]
I might use the info@cervicalcheck for my request too. Nothing back from my say Hmm

Well done on keeping them in their toes. Must do an FOI on the Equality Impact Assessment.

Annasgirl · 02/10/2020 12:48

This is all such BS. Why on earth do they need to do a gender impact study - surely the EA protects sex so it is a sex impact - ie male and female impact?

Or am I wrong here and somehow the GRA legislation has superseded the sex based rights of the Equality Act?