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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish women, have you seen this?

419 replies

SecondRow · 17/09/2020 08:23

The HSE removed the word "woman" from their CERVICAL screening pages Angry
I stumbled across this tweet
twitter.com/Salwicklow/status/1305967737563422720?s=20

politely asking them to put woman back in, alongside trans men and trans women, who both get their own special mentions, but they have brushed off the woman who made the original request and are no longer replying.

Here's the HSE pages
www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/cervical-screening/when-you-should-have-cervical-screening/who-should-have-cervical-screening.html

And here's Aoife Martin - no cervix skin in the game Hmm inviting followers to mock women for wanting the 99.9% of people who need cervical screening to be named as such by a health service that already has some serious catching up to do before women can believe it has their best interests at heart.

twitter.com/aoifemrtn/status/1306339571790159872?s=20

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 12:57

The equality act protects gender. At the time it probably meant sex but due to the wording, combined with the GRA, a transwoman has more protection than a biological woman in Ireland.

Cailleach1 · 02/10/2020 13:00

Don't see sex as a protected characteristic. I think gender is meant to allude to sex as they say male and female. How the ef are male and female gender?

They cover the nine grounds of gender, marital status, family status, age disability, sexual orientation, race, religion, and membership of the Traveller community. In addition, the Acts prohibit discrimination in the provision of accommodation services against people who are in receipt of rent supplement, housing assistance, or social welfare payments

www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/equal-status-acts/

Don't know if there is any other legislation. Also, if gender is stated to allude to male and female, is that particular to biology. Which is sex, not gender.

I'm getting dizzy.

swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 13:20

@Cailleach1

Don't see sex as a protected characteristic. I think gender is meant to allude to sex as they say male and female. How the ef are male and female gender?

They cover the nine grounds of gender, marital status, family status, age disability, sexual orientation, race, religion, and membership of the Traveller community. In addition, the Acts prohibit discrimination in the provision of accommodation services against people who are in receipt of rent supplement, housing assistance, or social welfare payments

www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/equal-status-acts/

Don't know if there is any other legislation. Also, if gender is stated to allude to male and female, is that particular to biology. Which is sex, not gender.

I'm getting dizzy.

It's hard to know. I think it was intended as sex, but the GRA 2015, would make it open to interpretation I would think, but I am not an expert. My worry would be in a hypothetical case such as where a woman and a transwoman apply for a job. The employer may give the job to the transwoman as maternity leave would be less likely to be an issue. This would leave the woman at a disadvantage as, while the bias would be due to biology, legally they gave the job to a woman, so they displayed no bias. Perhaps someone with a better knowledge of the law would have a better idea.
Annasgirl · 02/10/2020 13:34

@swingsandroundabouts1

The equality act protects gender. At the time it probably meant sex but due to the wording, combined with the GRA, a transwoman has more protection than a biological woman in Ireland.
Yes this annoys me so much. the word gender was originally used because some fuddy twats in either Victorian England or in the US did not want to say the word sex in polite conversation so they adopted the word gender. But, as has been shown on another thread, there was a concerted effort by men to change the meaning of this word to their own ends. And now, all the laws are effectively invalid. the problem is that these people who want to erode our sex based rights are way, way, smarter than your average TD.
OchonAgusOchonO · 02/10/2020 15:48

That is shocking. I had assumed the ground was sex, not gender. Whether we have protection as women basically boils down to whether transwoman is considered to be a different gender to a woman or not as the Equal Status Act says it doesn't count as discrimination for differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender,.

We could argue the case that they are different so genders are male, female, transfemale etc. However, with the GRA, even if we were protected on the grounds of sex, a GRC would negate that protection as a gender recognition cert means biology no longer exists:

Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 15:57

I have received an email response from the IHREC, I will post the complete details later.

Annasgirl - the GRA legislation supersedes the sex based rights of the Equality Act

swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 16:27

@OchonAgusOchonO

That is shocking. I had assumed the ground was sex, not gender. Whether we have protection as women basically boils down to whether transwoman is considered to be a different gender to a woman or not as the Equal Status Act says it doesn't count as discrimination for differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender,.

We could argue the case that they are different so genders are male, female, transfemale etc. However, with the GRA, even if we were protected on the grounds of sex, a GRC would negate that protection as a gender recognition cert means biology no longer exists:

Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

Yes. It is absolutely shocking when you realise what has been done to ensure that every protection has been put in place to protect trans people. While, nobody would object to any marginalised group being protected against discrimination, the manner in which this was done at the expense of women is actually breathtaking. I think it is only when something really serious happens that people will realise the full extent of this.
Annasgirl · 02/10/2020 16:46

Dear God, I honestly had no clue that we had lost our sex based protection and no woman shouted stop. I am beyond angry now. I will be following up with every single TD on this, not just the female ones.

I wonder would Brenda Power take this up? Or Justine McCarthy? I'm trying to think of someone hard hitting.

ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 16:47

Just filling in an application form for an all boys secondary school :

Please confirm the prospective student's gender or gender identity.

Fuck off!!

I scribbled it out and put sex=male

ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 16:54

Email from IHREC in response to my question ' am I able to advertise therapy services only for people whose biological sex is female, regardless of what gender they identify as?'

I noted from your email you request information in relation to advertising a therapy service for female clients.

The response below is provided for information purposes only.

The Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2018 (“the ESA”), prohibit discrimination on ten specific grounds in the provision of goods and services, obtaining or disposing of accommodation and in relation to educational establishments. The ESA defines ‘service’ as “a service or facility of any nature which is available to the public generally or a section of the public.”

The ten grounds of discrimination covered by the ESA are gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, race, membership of the Traveller community, disability and the housing assistance ground (in relation to the provision of accommodation services).

The gender ground entitles you to equal treatment whether you are a man, a woman or a transgender person. Further information on the ten grounds can be found in the Frequently Asked Questions on the Equal Status Acts section of our website (www.ihrec.ie).

Direct discrimination occurs where a person is treated less favourably than another person would be treated in a comparable situation on any of the above 10 grounds. Indirect discrimination occurs where an apparently neutral provision puts a person who is protected by any of the above grounds at a particular disadvantage compared with other persons, unless the provision is objectively justified by a legitimate aim and the means of achieving that aim are appropriate and necessary.

Exceptions

I refer to your query regarding exceptions to the ESA. In general, not all forms of less favourable treatment by service provider’s amounts to discrimination on the gender ground.

Section 5(2)(g) of the ESA provides that treatment of persons on the gender ground are permissible “where embarrassment or infringment of privacy can reasonable be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender”.

The former equality tribunal (now the Workplace Relations Commission) has considered this exception in relation to difference of treatment as between a man and a women. In McMahon v Bridal Heaven, a shop specialising in bridal wear sought to avail of the exemption. In this case, the equality officer did not accept that a blanket ‘no men’ policy was permissible given that the privacy of female customers could be secured by availing of dressing rooms and by the option of making a private appointment.

In Blaney v The Bridal Studio, this excemption was successfully relied upon when a man was asked to leave a bridal shop. In the case, the respondents argued that the layout of the premises required that customers would be fitted for dresses while on the shop floor area. The respondent did not operate a general gender exclusion policy and could legitimatly avail of the section 5(2)(g) exemption on the facts of this case.

Section 5 (2)(c) of the ESA provides an exemption in respect of ‘differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground in relation to services of an aesthetic, cosmetic or similar nature, where the services require physical contact between the service provider and the recipient’. In Carroll v Gruaig Barber it was found that, this exemption applied in the context of a barbershop where the comparison is as between a man and a woman.

Recent case law has clarified that this is not case where refusal is on the transgender ground. In the case of Lee Mcloughlin V Paula Smith Charlies Barbers the complainant, who was a transgender male, was refused a haircut in a barbershop. The barbers refused by stating that they don’t cut ladies hair. It was found that the respondent cannot rely on the Carroll v Gruaig Barber case, given that the complainant in this case under consideration is a transgender man (and not a woman). On the facts of this case, it was found that the claimant suffered discrimination on the grounds of gender and the claimant was awarded €5,000.

Section 6(2)(e) provides that the discrimination prohibition does not apply in respect of ‘the provision of accommodation to persons of one gender where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender.

Making a complaint under the Equal Status Acts

In terms of bringing a successful complaint under the Acts, the complainant must first demonstrate that there has been less favourable treatment as between two persons, where the complainant falls under one of the above protected grounds, and the other (the comparator) doesn’t but is in a similar situation. In this regard, the law allows for either actual or, in certain situations, hypothetical comparators to be relied upon.

It is a matter for an individual to decide whether they wish to pursue this matter before the Workplace Relations Commission. At the end of this letter I have included a short Information Note on how to lodge a complaint with the Workplace Relations Commission. It is important that you read that information. If you wish to make a complaint of discrimination, you must notify the person against whom the complaint is being made, in writing, within two months of the date of the most recent occurrence of the discrimination. If there is no reply within one month or if the reply is unsatisfactory, your complaint should be lodged with the Workplace Relations Commission within six months of the discrimination. It is your responsibility to ensure that all legal deadlines are met.

The contents of this note are provided for information purposes only to assist you and do not constitute a legal analysis of your particular situation. While we seek to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date, it is not a legal interpretation of the law and should not be relied on as such. For any professional or legal advice you should consult a suitably qualified person.

WiserOwl · 02/10/2020 16:55

Ha! Fair protrst. Gender identity! at an all boys school!!
As if anybody whose child was 'fluid' if that is the term would choose an all boys secondary!

swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 16:56

@Annasgirl

Dear God, I honestly had no clue that we had lost our sex based protection and no woman shouted stop. I am beyond angry now. I will be following up with every single TD on this, not just the female ones.

I wonder would Brenda Power take this up? Or Justine McCarthy? I'm trying to think of someone hard hitting.

If you look at the list of names that signed the letter that was put out in opposition to the letter of support for JKR, there is a lot of Irish names there. Louise ONeill being one. I was disappointed to see Rory Gleeson the son of Brendan had signed it. I always admired that family. They do a lot of charity work. It will be hard to find an Irish journalist to speak about this. I was listening to Claire Byrne this morning. They had the usual discussion of the weeks event. Not a mention of Barbie in Limerick prison. Its as if it isn't happening.
swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 16:57

*though it could be a different Rory Gleeson.

swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 17:00

@ForeverFaithless

Email from IHREC in response to my question ' am I able to advertise therapy services only for people whose biological sex is female, regardless of what gender they identify as?'

I noted from your email you request information in relation to advertising a therapy service for female clients.

The response below is provided for information purposes only.

The Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2018 (“the ESA”), prohibit discrimination on ten specific grounds in the provision of goods and services, obtaining or disposing of accommodation and in relation to educational establishments. The ESA defines ‘service’ as “a service or facility of any nature which is available to the public generally or a section of the public.”

The ten grounds of discrimination covered by the ESA are gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, race, membership of the Traveller community, disability and the housing assistance ground (in relation to the provision of accommodation services).

The gender ground entitles you to equal treatment whether you are a man, a woman or a transgender person. Further information on the ten grounds can be found in the Frequently Asked Questions on the Equal Status Acts section of our website (www.ihrec.ie).

Direct discrimination occurs where a person is treated less favourably than another person would be treated in a comparable situation on any of the above 10 grounds. Indirect discrimination occurs where an apparently neutral provision puts a person who is protected by any of the above grounds at a particular disadvantage compared with other persons, unless the provision is objectively justified by a legitimate aim and the means of achieving that aim are appropriate and necessary.

Exceptions

I refer to your query regarding exceptions to the ESA. In general, not all forms of less favourable treatment by service provider’s amounts to discrimination on the gender ground.

Section 5(2)(g) of the ESA provides that treatment of persons on the gender ground are permissible “where embarrassment or infringment of privacy can reasonable be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender”.

The former equality tribunal (now the Workplace Relations Commission) has considered this exception in relation to difference of treatment as between a man and a women. In McMahon v Bridal Heaven, a shop specialising in bridal wear sought to avail of the exemption. In this case, the equality officer did not accept that a blanket ‘no men’ policy was permissible given that the privacy of female customers could be secured by availing of dressing rooms and by the option of making a private appointment.

In Blaney v The Bridal Studio, this excemption was successfully relied upon when a man was asked to leave a bridal shop. In the case, the respondents argued that the layout of the premises required that customers would be fitted for dresses while on the shop floor area. The respondent did not operate a general gender exclusion policy and could legitimatly avail of the section 5(2)(g) exemption on the facts of this case.

Section 5 (2)(c) of the ESA provides an exemption in respect of ‘differences in the treatment of persons on the gender ground in relation to services of an aesthetic, cosmetic or similar nature, where the services require physical contact between the service provider and the recipient’. In Carroll v Gruaig Barber it was found that, this exemption applied in the context of a barbershop where the comparison is as between a man and a woman.

Recent case law has clarified that this is not case where refusal is on the transgender ground. In the case of Lee Mcloughlin V Paula Smith Charlies Barbers the complainant, who was a transgender male, was refused a haircut in a barbershop. The barbers refused by stating that they don’t cut ladies hair. It was found that the respondent cannot rely on the Carroll v Gruaig Barber case, given that the complainant in this case under consideration is a transgender man (and not a woman). On the facts of this case, it was found that the claimant suffered discrimination on the grounds of gender and the claimant was awarded €5,000.

Section 6(2)(e) provides that the discrimination prohibition does not apply in respect of ‘the provision of accommodation to persons of one gender where embarrassment or infringement of privacy can reasonably be expected to result from the presence of a person of another gender.

Making a complaint under the Equal Status Acts

In terms of bringing a successful complaint under the Acts, the complainant must first demonstrate that there has been less favourable treatment as between two persons, where the complainant falls under one of the above protected grounds, and the other (the comparator) doesn’t but is in a similar situation. In this regard, the law allows for either actual or, in certain situations, hypothetical comparators to be relied upon.

It is a matter for an individual to decide whether they wish to pursue this matter before the Workplace Relations Commission. At the end of this letter I have included a short Information Note on how to lodge a complaint with the Workplace Relations Commission. It is important that you read that information. If you wish to make a complaint of discrimination, you must notify the person against whom the complaint is being made, in writing, within two months of the date of the most recent occurrence of the discrimination. If there is no reply within one month or if the reply is unsatisfactory, your complaint should be lodged with the Workplace Relations Commission within six months of the discrimination. It is your responsibility to ensure that all legal deadlines are met.

The contents of this note are provided for information purposes only to assist you and do not constitute a legal analysis of your particular situation. While we seek to ensure that the information provided is accurate and up to date, it is not a legal interpretation of the law and should not be relied on as such. For any professional or legal advice you should consult a suitably qualified person.

As suspected if you are a transwoman you are a woman.
ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 17:00

James Kirkup included his take on how they snuck the legislation in :

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 17:03

Nobody wants to openly discuss any possiblity of there being a problem.

Trans lobby has captured them all

ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 17:07

@Glinner

Help!! Do you know any Irish people here who are willing to speak out?

OchonAgusOchonO · 02/10/2020 17:57

@swingsandroundabouts1 - As suspected if you are a transwoman you are a woman.

The question I have is whether the claimant below has a GRC or not. If they have a GRC, then I would say they law is very clear as the GRC magically changes their sex. If they don't have a GRC, then surely their gender is trans rather than female? That would be an interesting appeal.

Recent case law has clarified that this is not case where refusal is on the transgender ground. In the case of Lee Mcloughlin V Paula Smith Charlies Barbers the complainant, who was a transgender male, was refused a haircut in a barbershop. The barbers refused by stating that they don’t cut ladies hair. It was found that the respondent cannot rely on the Carroll v Gruaig Barber case, given that the complainant in this case under consideration is a transgender man (and not a woman). On the facts of this case, it was found that the claimant suffered discrimination on the grounds of gender and the claimant was awarded €5,000.

swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 18:14

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]**@swingsandroundabouts1* - As suspected if you are a transwoman you are a woman.*

The question I have is whether the claimant below has a GRC or not. If they have a GRC, then I would say they law is very clear as the GRC magically changes their sex. If they don't have a GRC, then surely their gender is trans rather than female? That would be an interesting appeal.

Recent case law has clarified that this is not case where refusal is on the transgender ground. In the case of Lee Mcloughlin V Paula Smith Charlies Barbers the complainant, who was a transgender male, was refused a haircut in a barbershop. The barbers refused by stating that they don’t cut ladies hair. It was found that the respondent cannot rely on the Carroll v Gruaig Barber case, given that the complainant in this case under consideration is a transgender man (and not a woman). On the facts of this case, it was found that the claimant suffered discrimination on the grounds of gender and the claimant was awarded €5,000.[/quote]
The thing is that you have no way of knowing. If you ask it is a hate crime

The person to whom the gender recognition certificate is issued shall not be required to produce it as proof of gender or identity for any purpose save as required by law.

So you can't ask, because if you do they can sue you for discrimination. So basically anyone can walk into a ladies toilet unchallenged

seadreaming2020 · 02/10/2020 18:46

There is self I’d in Ireland anyway so not sure asking for a GRC would hold any water. They have really messed up in Ireland and is one of the reasons I am hesitant about moving back there - women’s rights have take a huge step backwards - and what’s worse is people are afraid to even discuss.

swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 18:53

My point was.that for example, if a woman went into a toilet to get away from some creepy guy, the security guard would be put in a very difficult position. If the creepy guy says I am a woman the security guard cannot ask for evidence.
So they put every safeguard in for trans people and none for women

SecondRow · 02/10/2020 20:09

Two cases of bridal shops wanting to keep men out. Two cases of barbers wanting to keep women out.

Doesn't fully answer your question Forever or does it? Surely it should be possible to draw boundaries on sex grounds for services more intimate than hairdressing?

OP posts:
swingsandroundabouts1 · 02/10/2020 20:53

*"from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman."

According to the Act once you change gender you change sex. Genitalia doesn't matter. I cannot believe Irish politians voted for this.

ForeverFaithless · 02/10/2020 23:01

SecondRow - what I take from the email is that another WaxMyBalls is going to make an appearance in Ireland and make life a misery for small business women here

MarDhea · 03/10/2020 08:17

@SecondRow

Two cases of bridal shops wanting to keep men out. Two cases of barbers wanting to keep women out.

Doesn't fully answer your question Forever or does it? Surely it should be possible to draw boundaries on sex grounds for services more intimate than hairdressing?

Yes I think intimate services would be able to use the exemption legitimately, but it will take a legal case to settle it by establishing a precedent.

That latter barber shop case - I remember it at the time, where a transman with a GRC was turned away from a barbers, and the barbers said they thought the person in question was a woman not a transman. The transman won the case of discrimination on grounds of gender = transgender, not gender = male.

The three different gender categories in the equal status act (male, female, transgender) mean that transman does not equal male and transwoman does not equal female in equality law. A lawyer friend of mine thinks that in some ways, that makes the exemption easier to apply, and a waxmyballs situation would find in favour of the beautician.

But until a case comes to tribunal, it's all hypothetical...