Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

[EdgeOfACoin]

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

Someone else has phoned up the gym. Reception told them that it is the law!
They really are idiots aren't they?!

I dont think they're idiots - I mean if I did not know any better and Stonewall with its huge reputation and brand came in and told me it was the law, I'd believe them!

It's Stonewalls deliberate misrepresentation of the law that's the problem

It is Stonewall Law.

Could someone perhaps contact the gym (email might be better for a paper trail) to ask which bit of the law? Specifically, which law states that male people have the right to go into the opposite single sex space if they think they belong in there, regardless of the reality of their biology?

Or maybe to quote the specific bit of the EA (I'll see if I can find it).

I know it is like banging your head against a brick wall, though. I tried to get a sports club to look into why their trans policy was contra to the EA and was told it was their policy and they'd look into it.

FPFW might be your friend here.

fairplayforwomen.com/resources/law/

The point is made that under the EA2010, a person cannot be discriminated against because they have undergone, are undergoing or propose to undergo gender reassignment. BUT, for the purposes of the EA, their treatment should be the same as if they were still presenting as their birth sex. They do not become female for the purposes of the EA

Below is an extract from Equality Act.

"Paragraph contains exceptions to the general prohibition of sex discrimination to allow the provision of single-sex services.

734.Single sex services are permitted where:

only people of that sex require it;

there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not sufficient on its own;

if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective and it is not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex;

they are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special attention (or in parts of such an establishment);

they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa); or

they may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

735.In each case, the separate provision has to be objectively justified.

736.These exceptions also cover public functions in respect of the “back-room” managerial, administrative and finance decisions which allow such single-sex services to be provided.

Background
737.This paragraph replaces some similar provisions that only covered public functions and some that applied to services in the Sex Discrimination Act 1975. These exceptions have been extended to cover both services and public functions.

Examples
738.These exceptions would allow:

a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;

a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;

a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;

separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;

separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;

a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment

Thank you for those.
I have emailed them to the branch manager.

Just remind the manager what sex is and what gender is.

@NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace
Good luck with your meeting today.
Let us know how it goes. I am sure you will correct them on their misinterpretation of the law better than me.
I hate talking to people on the phone. I'm much better face to face.

@Norma27

Thank you. My meeting's at 11am. I'll be back .....

Good luck with the meeting NiceLegs.

I asked my branch manager to forward my emails to head office and that I expected them to contact me. He has just emailed to say he has done that and head office will be in touch.
I also threw in the fact one of my degrees is actually in law. I wish I'd carried on pursuing that career so I could pursue this absolute nonsense better.

Probably worth mentioning when you get the 'it's the law' response to ask where they received that information. Because if the source is Stonewall, this is hardly an impartial and disinterested view, and they need to consider that they have taken their policy from a political lobby group with a very specific agenda. And to look at FPFW and other views to be certain that they are not unintentionally providing a politically captured and anti woman stance believing this to be the objective facts.

Hint: This is why you get involved with political lobby groups with extreme caution when you have a duty to serve all the general public impartially.

Ask who exactly made the call - where does the buck stop? Who did they ask or engage with? Do they know the law and have their lawyers seen this? How much business are they willing to loose?

Also: it is disrespectful and frankly beyond naiive to believe that women of faith, culture, disability etc etc can just be argued out of their access barriers.

Those doing it are usually woefully naiive at best.

Those women will be excluded. That's the bottom line. To include men into female spaces, female people will have to be excluded. Female spaces will no longer do the job they were invented for which is to serve the needs of all females.

There is no point in wittering about inclusion, kindness, diversity, tolerance, intersectionality or any of the other buzz words, unless these are extended equally to all female people and with understanding of female specific needs as well as to males. Otherwise it's just basic sexism of males more important, females must give way.

I would like Virgin to look their punters in the face and say "If you're a female who cannot share a mixed sex space due to your disability, trauma, religion, culture or desire for privacy and dignity, then we cannot meet your needs and you are not welcome on our premises."

Own it.

If that's what you believe, be honest about it and own it. Stand behind it without fudging.

So .....

The meeting was cordial and convivial. The manager at my club is conversant with the law because he takes guidance from VA's legal department, rather than spouting rubbish. There was no mention of Stonewall or Mermaids type law, thank goodness.

VA's policy applies nationwide as I would expect. They don't allow random males into the female changing rooms; it's a case of 'assessing each case on its merit'.

We discussed protected characteristics and he was spot on about the fact that both 'sex' and 'gender reassignment' are protected; there was no clouding the issue with the use of 'gender identity'. He also acknowledged that these protected characteristics could cause clashes between different groups.

We discussed the needs of specific groups of women, for example Muslim women (I'm sure that other religions are affected too but I don't profess to be an expert) and how they would be marginalised by the inclusion of males in female spaces. He was definitely understanding and supportive of their needs and rights.

It is expected that anyone other than a biological female wishing to use the female changing space should discuss their requirements with the management prior to using that space so that an assessment can be made as to whether it's reasonable to allow them to do so. It's hard to police but that's the understanding at my club: males are not free to invade female space at will.

I did ask what would happen if I observed a male person changing with me and was uncomfortable about it. The manager was quite clear that the male person, rather than me, would be invited to an alternative space where they could feel comfortable while matters were resolved, ie discussed with the legal team. He understood that this may take time and would not permit the person access to the female changing space while discussions were ongoing.

He did admit that it was a minefield and said that, until we had a 'test case' (for need of a better word), it was difficult to predict outcomes.

My gut feeling about the manager at my club – bearing in mind that he was reasonably careful about his choice of words – is that he supports women's rights to single sex spaces. If he were pushed to make a choice I do believe that he'd come down on the side of women. And sanity. He knows what a woman is. Definitely.

I haven't changed the world here – I never expected to change VA's policy in a single meeting – but I do think that my club manager is handling this fairly in the light of VA's top level guidance. If clubs were free to decide individually, I'm sure that my club would find in favour of women.

I did feel that my fears and concerns, on behalf of all women, were heard and I was treated with respect. The manager had already passed on my views to senior management so our voices have been heard, if only quietly for the time being

There is still much to be done. However, I do feel reassured that the safety and dignity of women is something that my local manager takes seriously.

I think I've made a small amount of progress today; baby steps and all that.

I'd be really interested to hear outcomes from other clubs.

Thanks everyone for just being on these boards. You give me hope. All of you

From all the jizzing over the cubicle porn vids I've seen going around, to the Target unisex changing rooms sex assault increase stats, I would never use changing rooms a man would also use.

Amazing update Norma!

You are changing the world - BE the change you want to see.

Well done NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace 👏

However - someone sitting in their nice office with carefully worded platitudes is NOT the Saturday staff who would be subject to abuse, threats and accusations should they query a male person in the ladies.

How does this work with a gym like Pure that is more like a self service cafeteria (code to get in, few staff, open 24 hours)?

Well done @NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace
Let's hope head office start taking notice.
As I doubt I would get the great deal I had before though, it is very unlikely I will be going back there now.

Oops well done Nicelegs not Norma sorry..!

I wouldn’t hold your breath. Didn’t Virgin Money sponsor a specific camp...?

@SerenityNowwwww

Oh, I completely agree. I definitely feel better after the meeting than before and I do feel that the manager handled it really well.

But that doesn't mean that I'm happy or that anything is resolved.

@EdgeOfACoin

I know that a fair amount of women on FWR used to believe wholeheartedly in the TWAW mantra before changing their view over time.

I'm just wondering - did anyone on here ever make those same arguments that Norma is hearing? And did anyone ever feel slightly silly/awkward making them at the time? Obviously some people make those arguments because they truly believe them. However, some people have to make those arguments because that's where TRA logic takes you, even if it's an uncomfortable conclusion.

Not that I was making those arguments but when I heard things such as a transwoman was killed/beaten up in (a men's) prison, I thought "Of course they're going to be!", but in my mind (and I maybe saw photos) they were feminine presenting and had a boyfriend

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-34869620

this was the general mental picture I had of a transwoman

I knew not that the majority kept their penis nor thought about them being sexually attracted to women, I guess in a way I saw them as a step further than an effeminate gay man.

I just didn't really think further than how their lives were affected

There should absolutely be safe, dignified provision for TW in prisons, and for other vulnerable LGBT+ males, no one should ever be forced to undress, change, use a toilet or sleep in a situation where they feel unsafe or humiliated. I just think that female humans are included in the everybody.

Two separate sets of needs. Male people should not be subjected to those unacceptable experiences- the fact that not all men treat vulnerable male people that way doesn't take away the harm done by those who do. Their presence in female facilities however would subject females to those unacceptable experiences - the fact not all of those females would mind doesn't take away the harm that would happen to those who do. Third spaces. Everyone's needs met.