Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

[EdgeOfACoin]

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

I actually feel very positive about your update, NiceLegs. I think our main job is to make it clear that women are not happy having their spaces opened up to male-bodied people. As someone else commented on another thread, women were never asked if they were willing to allow male-bodied people into their spaces - this decision was made by male psychiatrists in the 1950s and presumably without any thought as to how it would affect women.

I'll let you know how my VA responds.

I knew not that the majority kept their penis nor thought about them being sexually attracted to women, I guess in a way I saw them as a step further than an effeminate gay man.

I think that was how most of us saw things.

That other thread is really interesting edge. I had never really thought about how male doctors/psychiatrists etc thought our spaces were of no importance and just theirs to give away.

That’s what I say - you don’t have a dog in this race, these aren’t your rights that you are so happy to give away - what’s in it for you/what’s in it for me?

There should absolutely be safe, dignified provision for TW in prisons

If there was, I highly suspect that suddenly so many male.prison inmates wouldn't decide they were TW all of a sudden, after a life lived as a man. No access to the female then, you see.

There should absolutely be safe, dignified provision for TW in prisons, and for other vulnerable LGBT+ males, no one should ever be forced to undress, change, use a toilet or sleep in a situation where they feel unsafe or humiliated. I just think that female humans are included in the everybody.

Perfect that.

There is a wing - attached to a womans prison. Wasn’t there a hooha because it was separate? Not about keeping safe from male prisoners then.

Downview prison in Surrey.

Some lovely MNetters went and protested by the road leading up to it when males were moved across the road from Highdown (Male estate).

Going off topic here, but I think this may have relevance.
An employment tribunal has found in favour of someone who worked initially as a man then wanted to identify as a woman.
To cut it short they basically claimed bullying/discrimination and problems accessing toilet facilities due to gender reassignment and sexual orientation.
The company claimed as they were gender fluid/non binary they did not fall under the definition of someone who had gender reassignment which is a protected characteristic under EA.
The article I read does not state if they found for harassment , accessing toilet facilities or both.
It actually doesn't mention if the person wanted to access female toilets, or if they felt harassed using the male toilets. If it was female toilets then I think it will impact on how companies now act.
I don't know how to do links, but the company is jaguar land rover and it will show up on BBC news or Google.

There's a thread on this, Norma - I'm sure it will be of interest to many.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4025528-Non-binary-people-are-now-protected-from-discrimination-under-the-UK-Equality-Act

Thanks @ErrolTheDragon

Here is my head office reply.
No safety issues involved at all.
Doesn't think of privacy and dignity issues.

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation.

Ask them to define ‘gender identity’ and ‘sex’. Also who trains their safeguarding team. And if kids/youngsters are allowed in - at what age alone. And if their insurance company is aware.

I will email back tomorrow once I have some suggestions from here.
Thank you @SerenityNowwwww

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

Except for females wanting privacy and dignity, or who have a faith, culture, trauma or disability that precludes them from sharing mixed sex spaces. So it's not 'anyone' or 'everyone' is it?

We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people

I'm sorry, are they saying female people who can't share mixed sex spaces aren't even 'people' now? Obviously there will be some females who's 'enjoyment' and basic access is impaired to the point they are excluded.

They seem to be taking the popular political approach of just pretending the unwanted issues and people don't exist.

You could also add... ‘And personally, I think you are a shower if sh**s’.

This used to be a favourite sign off of mine when I was particularly pissed (years ago back in letter writing days). I remember a lawyer advising me to put ‘and personally I think...’.

I’d make sure I’d send it to a named person and fax it to a central office number.

And still the bottom line: why is everything about prioritising the needs of male members instead of female people who need and want female only spaces?

Also (Sorry Norma!)

The whole: we'll terminate the membership after someone male has done something inappropriate that's distressed a female member thing....

a) not even forensically evidenced rape gets successfully prosecuted in most cases in the UK

b) it will be the word of the woman and witness against the male's with everyone walking on eggshells in terror of seeming transphobic regardless of the male's behaviour, and the woman runs the risk of staff making accusations of transphobia and waving an equality policy in her face

c) the majority of women will not dare to complain or face down a male behaving in an inappropriate way, because it is not safe to for women to do that with most unknown males behaving inappropriately

d) how many female members will just quietly get the fuck out of dodge and never dare to say just the presence of a male in that room, regardless of how that male subjectively identifies themselves, prevents them being able to use that room themselves?

And why the fuck are they only prepared to safeguard females after one has been sufficiently harmed?

We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

They're on dodgy ground with claiming not to tolerate anything that 'disturbs the enjoyment' - if pressed I'd say waiting too long for a shower 'disturbs my enjoyment' but I'm not asking for a zero-tolerance policy on it.

More seriously, I'd say that privacy and dignity would fall under the 'enjoyment' bit, so at least they're not just saying 'people have to actually break the law to be banned' - being made to feel uncomfortable seems to be vaguely included, but I'd imagine they again get on to dodgy ground with people claiming each other have disturbed their enjoyment.

This is a bizarre sentence and I'm not sure I understand it: "The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity."

Could they explain why they have segregated changing rooms if not for health and safety reasons? We are talking about whether sex segregation should be adhered to for H&S reasons - could they clarify why this is not a topic that includes transgender people? Do they accept that transgender people have transitioned from the opposite 'sex' - surely to deny that denies the experience of many (not all) trans people?

Don't apologise @MichelleofzeResistance
I am grateful for all this.
I have a degree in law but graduated 20 years ago then went into accountancy and other industries so never feel well versed in law now. I am new to understanding what is happening so haven't been looking into this law etc before.
Thank you everyone.

Norma, that's such a weak response!

It sounds as though different branches are implementing the policy differently. It's clear that the people at the top haven't given this proper consideration at all.

It really is a weak response @EdgeOfACoin
It does make me realise I did the correct thing in cancelling
I also need to decide which other gym I join eventually.
I think bannatynes had a decent approach. It is slightly out of the way but only as much as VA was.
The village gym but I don't know their approach at all.
Or our council gym which has a changing village which i don't really like but at least it is all individual or family cubicles. I can also walk to my nearest one and use about 10 others in my city. 3 or 4 others only a couple of miles away.

@Norma27

Here is my head office reply. No safety issues involved at all. Doesn't think of privacy and dignity issues.

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people.

Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation.

there was a comment on another thread, perhaps someone will remember which and/or where, where a woman who turned round and walked out of a toilet when a transwoman was there, was accused of transphobia (or it might have been a theoretical example), that is not going to make the woman's experience enjoyable and together with

c) the majority of women will not dare to complain or face down a male behaving in an inappropriate way, because it is not safe to for women to do that with most unknown males behaving inappropriately

they may just leave the gym never to return and the gym would have no idea of the reason

We are sorry if you feel we have not addressed your concerns about the safety of female members within our changing rooms. The health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

If anyone needs a textbook example of cognitive dissonance...

And their legal basis for gender identity over sex is what exactly?

Are they making it clear that their changing rooms are now mixed sex?

I've not replied yet apart from saying Ng a proper response is forthcoming where I will dissect every sentence. I needed a break today!

But. Does anybody know the stance of other gym chains? I do want the join another gym hopefully. One option is the council gym which has a changing village which I am not overly keen on, but at least I know where I stand.