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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

289 replies

EdgeOfACoin · 10/09/2020 12:50

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

OP posts:
SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 18:41

Bannatyne?

finnmcool · 18/09/2020 18:53

GLL/Better Gym didn't even bother to do risk assessments regarding allowing self identifying males into the female changing rooms; I got that from their National Safeguarding Officer. They're not pro women. They've been Stonewalled

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:16

I am definitely thinking of bannatynes. It is quite out of the way which is putting me off a bit.
I'm even thinking of David Lloyd for the children too. I have no idea if where they stand tho so will check first.
Village hotels is another local option but again no idea.
I just know if I can stand confronting another gym chain just yet!

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:17

For some reason I keep missing words out.
I hope the above makes sense!

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 19:29

@finnmcool

GLL/Better Gym didn't even bother to do risk assessments regarding allowing self identifying males into the female changing rooms; I got that from their National Safeguarding Officer. They're not pro women. They've been Stonewalled
That should be illegal!
Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:36

I just can't understand how these companies do no risk assessments and don't understand there are any risks. To women's well-being if nothing else.
I do exercise at home too so have that, however I love an actual gym. My mum always comes with me to the sauna etc too (once reopened) and she needs it for her mental health. She used the disabled changing at VA as she couldn't manage the stairs from changing rooms to wet area and she has a blue badge. The disabled are mixed sex but a couple of individual changing cubicles. This type of third space is what is needed.

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 19:47

They do no risk assessment yet always seem to have a safeguarding offices. Odd that. It’s almost as if someone is telling them that it’s the law...

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 19:49

So true @SerenityNowwwww
I wonder who that someone telling them the incorrect law could be?!

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 19:53

Oh it’s on the tip of my tongue...

Concrete pillar
Plastic bunker
Clay edifice
Plasticine dyke

Och, it will come to me...

Norma27 · 18/09/2020 20:00

Ha ha!
I did reply to some tweets after not using Twitter for years. I realised my profile pic was me and one daughter so I changed it to the closest thing I could photograph. Wallpaper which looked like a stone wall!

EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 07:49

I've had a reply from the customer service manager from Virgin Active. Very generic; repeats a lot of the stuff that Norma got and didn't answer a single question of mine. The questions I had asked were:

  1. Will signage in the gym be changed to make it clear that segregation is on the basis of gender identity not biological sex so women can make an informed decision about whether to use the facilities?
  1. What safeguards will be in place to ensure that predatory males do not take advantage of the policy by saying they 'identify' as a woman?
  1. Will there be any provisions in place for women who do not feel comfortable undressing or showering in the presence of male-bodied people for personal or religious reasons (esp in view of the fact that the majority of transgender male-to-females do not have SRS and retain their male genitalia)?
  1. Why has VA not taken advantage of the exceptions in the Equality Act that allows provision for single-sex services?
  1. Please could I see a copy of the results of any consultation with women that would have taken place before implementation of the policy or the results of the risk-assessment that would have been carried out before implementation of the policy.

I got the following, somewhat confused response:

Thank you for taking the time to write to Matthew, I have reviewed your queries below with regards to segregation of changing room at Virgin Active.

We appreciate this is a sensitive area and it can be complicated. Here at Virgin Active we are an inclusive business, and aim to treat all of our members fairly, appropriately and with respect. If a transgender member wishes to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity, they are able to do so. Any departure from that would only be made on a case by case basis, and would involve consideration of the specific circumstances of the particular situation.

Our approach is in line with the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s statutory code of practice on the Equality Act, with their guidance for businesses, and with the Equality Act 2010.

Additionally, the health and safety of our members and staff is of utmost importance to us and is not the same topic as a transgender member wishing to use the changing rooms and other facilities which corresponds to their gender identity.

We work hard to ensure our clubs are a safe, friendly and a welcoming place to be for anyone.

All members and staff must commit to conducting themselves in a well-mannered fashion when on our premises. We do not/ will not tolerate anything that puts another’s safety at risk; disturbs the enjoyment, or, impairs the use of a club for other people. Any breach of these objectives, by anyone, will lead to termination of membership or employment, as applicable. Our teams are trained in the prevention of risks identified to our members’ health and safety, all complaints we receive are dealt with quickly and firmly with our dedicated Safeguarding team at the forefront of any investigation

I would also like to reiterate that we operate single sex changing rooms, this hasn't changed, and we have no plans to adopt community style gender fluid changing rooms at present.

I suppose I am not surprised (though am annoyed because I'll have to find another gym). Don't want to go without a fight, so will write back - hints and tips welcome!!

OP posts:
EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 07:50

Oh, and she also said that she 'hoped she had answered my queries'. Confused

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Norma27 · 19/09/2020 07:54

Love how they ignored every single one of your questions Edge.

EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 07:55

@Norma27

Love how they ignored every single one of your questions Edge.
It actually made me laugh.
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SerenityNowwwww · 19/09/2020 08:00

They are breaking the law surely? Don’t they have lawyers?

Dedicated Safeguarding team? Risk assessment? I think not.

“We aim to treat all of our members fairly, appropriately and with respect...” apart from anyone who raises concerns.

Daily mail, where are you now?

Norma27 · 19/09/2020 08:01

In previous roles I've had, I have had to answer questions I would rather not. I would have been hauled over the coals if I just bloody ignored them.

highame · 19/09/2020 08:07

Equality and Human Rights Commission’s statutory code of practice on the Equality Act, with their guidance for businesses, and with the Equality Act 2010.

So, they have had their guidance from a public body which will be the subject of a court case. It has already said it's guidance was incorrect and amended. We now wait to see if it is going to inform all of those incorrectly advised organisations that it got it wrong.

tinkiiev · 19/09/2020 08:10

I don't understand - why does the reply say

^
I would also like to reiterate that we operate single sex changing rooms, this hasn't changed, and we have no plans to adopt community style gender fluid changing rooms at present^.

I thought that was exactly what they weren't doing??Confused

EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 08:11

Exactly, tinkiiev.

There's a complete lack of understanding of the issues.

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SerenityNowwwww · 19/09/2020 08:21

Just asked them outright ‘so what you are saying is...’ in black and white.

DeaconBoo · 19/09/2020 08:26

Your questions are clear. Personally I'd keep pushing for them to be actually answered rather than confuse them with further ones.
I absolutely hate it when questions I ask are just ignored!

DeaconBoo · 19/09/2020 08:27

Also "gender fluid" to describe a changing room Grin they are clueless!

EdgeOfACoin · 19/09/2020 08:58

@DeaconBoo

Also "gender fluid" to describe a changing room Grin they are clueless!
Yeah, I liked that too.

The impression I am getting from NiceLegs and Norma's experiences, as well as my own, is that VA HQ is clueless. The individual branch managers, who would actually have to deal with any problems, might be a bit more switched on. However, their hands are tied to an extent because of the company policy set by HQ.

VA HQ has clearly been badly advised regarding the content of the Equality Act 2010.

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TheShoesa · 19/09/2020 21:04

How infuriating.

How can they possibly be promising SINGLE SEX changing rooms, if they are allowing members of the OPPOSITE SEX in on their own say so. FFS.

VA may think they are not operating a gender fluid changing areas (whatever the fuck that is supposed to be, I'll assume they mean mixed sex) but if they allow self ID transwomen into the women's changing area willy nilly, that is EXACTLY what they are doing.

Sorry for all the capitals, the reply they sent has made me more than a bit cross!

Norma27 · 20/09/2020 07:22

There is another thread about a Sunday times article stating self-id is to be taken off the table. The article states how most people want trans rights (obviously) but that single sex spaces should remain sex based.
The article states it had been recognised how certain lobbying groups tried to skew the figures so took that into account.
Apparently Liz Truss will talk in parliament on Wednesday on the issue.

This doesn't mean companies such as VA will take the sex-based rights of women seriously yet, but it must be a step in the right direction. The thread also mentions once Ann Symmott's case gets heard and details how ECHR are giving incorrect guidance on this issue this could start unravelling.
Let's cross our fingers!
I hope I stated that all correctly!
I can't link the thread/article sorry.