Virgin Active changing rooms segregated by gender identity

[EdgeOfACoin]

Okay, I know this has been mentioned on passing on another thread, but I think it needs its own discussion.

Virgin Active have said that their changing rooms are segregated by gender identity and not by biological sex:

mobile.twitter.com/VirginActiveUK/status/1303378847711272961

I'm a VA member. This is something I would be prepared to cancel my membership over. Are they seriously saying that any male may access women-only communal changing rooms, where there are no individual cubicles, where women routinely queue for showers, provided he says he identifies as a woman?

This isn't about toilets. This isn't about who is 'peeing next to you' in the next cubicle. This is about women having to agree to undress in the presence of male-bodied strangers if they wish to use the facilities.

How is this even remotely defensible?

(I like the Twitter replies though.)

@imissthesouth I don’t think it was actually in them but outside in the hallways and at the entrances - they said they would have been able to see who it was anyway

Ann Sinnott's case cannot come up quick enough.

I too used to be a member of VA and many women walk around naked, discreetly, but still naked, in the changing rooms.

This policy is insane. And totally unnecessary.

I don’t fancy sharing a changing room with a strange bloke any more than anyone else. However I don’t think it is right to say that these organisations are misunderstanding the law. I don’t think (happy to be proved wrong)that there is any ‘right’ to single sex spaces - I read the Equality Act as conferring an ability / a discretion to permit sex segregation where it is proportionate etc. That means that it is up to the service provider in question and of course, it is more bother as it has to be justified etc. Of course there are some building/ health and safety regulations in relation to toilets etc which provide for separate facilities in some cases, but that’s a different thing.

That’s true Evelyn but where on earth would it be proportionate to invoke the exemption if not in the case of a room where women are naked and expect to be only in the presence of other women.

If this isn’t a suitable case then there is no suitable case.

Oh thank god!

Evelyn don't forget that 14 year old upwards use these gyms and changing rooms. I'm pretty sure there's a law against that.

I read the Equality Act as conferring an ability / a discretion to permit sex segregation where it is proportionate etc. That means that it is up to the service provider in question and of course, it is more bother as it has to be justified etc

What it certainly doesn't have is any discretion to segregate by 'gender identity'.

Hardly surprising given that many people don't have one; what possible justification could there be to segregate by 'gender identity'?

Not a member but if I were I would cancel on this basis. Absolutely wrong on all levels. I’m sick to death of women being put upon for this issue. I don’t see the same happening to men (I don’t think they’d put up with it).
If VA wants to cater for everyone then it needs to offer male / female / family / and a separate mixed changing room for people who want to use non-gender specific changing rooms but who do not have young children with them.
That will involve putting their hands in their pockets to create these additional areas but surely being completely inclusive cannot have a price put on it..?

Clever to bring this in when Covid restrictions have closed changing rooms ( at least at my gym and the local pool ) so no one will notice till it’s been in place for months ...

@EvelynBeatrice

I don’t fancy sharing a changing room with a strange bloke any more than anyone else. However I don’t think it is right to say that these organisations are misunderstanding the law. I don’t think (happy to be proved wrong)that there is any ‘right’ to single sex spaces - I read the Equality Act as conferring an ability / a discretion to permit sex segregation where it is proportionate etc. That means that it is up to the service provider in question and of course, it is more bother as it has to be justified etc. Of course there are some building/ health and safety regulations in relation to toilets etc which provide for separate facilities in some cases, but that’s a different thing.

Indeed. Any place can make their changing facilities mixed sex.

Ten years ago? Virgin active announcing that all the changing rooms were mixed sex? There would be outrage. And the membership would disappear. And I include men in that.

The only reason they are doing it is because they have come under ideological pressure.

And, more to the point, most of their membership don't realise that the management have a choice.

Clear legal info in the link below - VA have every right to exclude male bodied adults - irrespective of how they identify, with or without a GRC (vast majority without).

They either don’t know this or they choose to utterly disregard the safety, privacy, dignity and equity of access to their female customers.

My gym (not VA) has open showers in the ladies. I would go mad if they brought in this policy.

legalfeminist.org.uk/2020/07/17/does-the-law-say-that-trans-women-are-women/

If anyone hears back from their club, would you mind updating here? I will do likewise. Thank you

Wouldn't a male body exposed in a female changing room be flashing in law?

@Mooncupdotcom

Wouldn't a male body exposed in a female changing room be flashing in law?

I think it would.

Unless they said they felt something on the inside, then it wouldn't.

I suppose what I mean is, there's a good way to challenge it...?

At my gym, LOTS of older ladies wander around the changing room naked.
We have areas segregated off so that children cannot go in
for the ladies who want real privacy.
If a person with a penis dared to get their kit off in there, it would get hit with a tennis racket

Which, unfortunately, under this new regime, would be construed as assault.

Rather than a reaction to indecent exposure.

Five years ago, when I first read about these issues on here, a poster wrote this all means that the crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure will cease to exist.

So many other posters scoffed, called her a scaremonger, said don't be ridiculous...

I suppose what I mean is, there's a good way to challenge it

Nope they have that inner essence that means woman, and we all know the mantra by now. Twaw blah blah

Are we moving towards a system where women avoid public places because of these changes ? Are females young and old going to be hiding away, unable to feel safe? In that case many organisations like leisure centres will lose a lot of money. Apart from the appalling blow to women’s rights and wellbeing, these corporations will lose a LOT of money. If some gymns keep single sex spaces, they will get all the custom. It makes no sense.

Yep - all the governments work on obesity (which honestly has got us nowhere) and women will avoid gyms and swimming pools.

If a young teenager raises concern about someone in the one changing room allocated to her sex, she could be the one in trouble for transphobia. If she is attacked, there’s still nothing to prevent that attacker using other women’s spaces or prisons.

I don't think I've ever seen someone naked in the changing room at my gym. There is a male cleaner from time to time though that isn't the best at announcing his presence

I wonder why that would be, Mrs Jamin?

My VA gym has male and female cleaners. I have only ever seen female cleaners in female changing rooms.
The changing rooms are communal with only 3 small cubicles. I often see women naked in there when getting changed.
I will definitely cancel my membership if they allow men in there too.
Our local council gym has mixed changing but there is no communal area just lots of cubicles. To be honest I find that bad enough.

Have VA clearly signed the changing rooms as mixed sex so that women can make an informed decision about whether to use them?