Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

"I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men."

Hmm. Wasn't there a rapper (Zuby?) who (to prove a point) identified as a woman and set new records in women's weightlifting or something?

The advantages that Caster has are the same biological advantages that male athletes have and so there is already a category for those particular advantages. The blog on CAIS was very interesting. Thanks for posting. That would cause me a greater dilemma.

the things is Lua its simly not true that most female athletes would beat 'normal' men

web.law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

as taken from the article

which is why we use sex is what we use to categorise not gender

"Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)"

@CranberriesChoccy

"I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men."

Hmm. Wasn't there a rapper (Zuby?) who (to prove a point) identified as a woman and set new records in women's weightlifting or something?

Bless him, yes he did. It was very funny - and not funny at the same time.

You see, to me that is the problem. It is not about her testosterone level, I agree. It is something else, but what exactly is it? and can we actually meassure it? I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men.

Does this help?

It's so important this is reported accurately (i.e. that Semenya is, whatever they grew up believing, a male person with a DSD) is that it is also true that black women have their feminity policed, athletic women have their feminity policed, there have always been "jokes" about women who want to play rugby/weightlift/box being "secretly men haha".

It can be right to push generally against the idea that women are small and delicate and look a certain way, and should care about their nails and hair and makeup rather than whether they're the best in the scrum or the fastest on the track, whilst also stating clearly that, in this particular case, Semenya is XY and shouldn't be competing in women's sports.

Lua
It's sex not gender that has been the divider on sport.
I think you'll find that even elite female athletes - in certain sports - would be beaten by relatively ordinary men. I saw some equivalent times for running posted here once, even exceptional women runners would be beaten by a half decent amateur club male runner.
Biology confers difference. Different physiology, different lung capacity, different bone density, different muscle mass. Testosterone levels are a part of that, but it's really what testosterone contributes to in male puberty that makes the difference, not just the level of that hormone in the body.

@Lua

It's not just about testosterone, male biology confirs many physical advantages in the sporting sense

You see, to me that is the problem. It is not about her testosterone level, I agree. It is something else, but what exactly is it? and can we actually meassure it? I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men.

I am pretty sure most athletes have something pretty extraordinary anyway, so how do we decide which ones are worth disqualifying?

It is a bit like trying to distinguish the different categories in paralympic games. I love the paralympic games, but I can't help thinking in some of the races that there are some gross mismatching.

I, of course, agree that gender is usually a fair charactheristic to categorize athletes. But I am sure there are many other traits that do give unfair disadvantage. So I cannot help but feel that Caster's situation do highlight the unfairness of it all. If we start digging as deep in every athlete we will find advantages in all of them. Some will be considered a "genetic gift" others will be considered "cheating".

No, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of sport categories and the effects of testosterone.

When we say "it's not about testosterone levels", we mean it's not about a male person's current testosterone levels. Rather, it's the fact that, at puberty, which was fuelled by high levels of testosterone, they virilisaled and therefore achieved enormous advantages over female athletes which can never be reversed.

There is actually nothing particularly special about CS's athletic ability: CS's times are not elite for someone with all the male advantages at their disposal.

It might have been Caster's choice to continue with it publicly, but I still think it's a very difficult way to grow up, find your way out of your old life by being good at sports, but have your identity in question all the time, by yourself and others. For any child or teen that will be difficult, and I can have sympathy for actions that were made later even if I agree that they were wrong.

I hope that it won't happen so much in the future now that testing for DSDs will be better worldwide, I hope, given increased knowledge now.

It is much more than just the levels of testosterone, but those additional benefits are driven by having the testosterone in the first place, which does come from having the specific gene normally on the Y chromosome. It's not just an extraordinary characteristic that a female has. Yes, all winning athletes will have extraordinary characteristics in some ways - genetic advantages - but not in ways that sports divides the competition into. That's the issue.

I don't know if there are ways of measuring how much male puberty has taken place, so that those with partial or complete androgen insensitivity could still compete. I think that some evidence has shown that they may still have advantages - even those with complete insensitivity - but I am not sure. It's those cases that I think are more of a grey area, and I would have sympathy with those who are unable to compete as a result (even though I suspect that might end up being the correct decision, if there are some advantages to having the gene, even with total insensitivity).

I remember reading an article about a female Olympic skier with a similar issue who was medically ‘diagnosed’ as male in middle age.

He (Erik Schinegger) gave back his medals and seemed quite apologetic (and relieved) and went off to have a wife and child.

He would agree with this ruling (by his past comments).

This is causing some confusion on Twitter. Some people still think Semenya is a 'cis' (e.g. female) woman and that the decision is horribly racist.

Then others have posted photos of the silver, bronze and 4th place runners against them and blows that theory out of the water.

There is actually nothing particularly special about CS's athletic ability: CS's times are not elite for someone with all the male advantages at their disposal.

On the boys vs women website I linked, it has under 16 boys vs the women’s 800m Olympic final, of which the medalists were all XY. All the boys would have beaten them.

boysvswomen.com/#/

They are mediocre males denying women medals.

Yes, NotBad. In fact, for even more clarity:

They are mediocre males denying the most extraordinary women medals.

I’ve said it before, but the racism is in the South African health system. If Semenya had grown up white in an affluent suburb of Cape Town, no way would this not have been diagnosed much sooner. Being poor and black and having limited access to health services meant Semenya got a long way before a diagnosis was made.

My 16 year old could cream me in any physical activity - even at my peak I couldn’t ourtun, our wrestle or out jump him. I could probably do a higher high jump but the ratbag even excels at javelin (which I was very good at) and long distance running.

I can only get points from him if we spar - that’s only because my MA discipline is different and in my opinion, superior to his (more attack than Defense) but I haven’t explained that to him (he just thinks I am a crazy woman).

@NotBadConsidering

I’ve said it before, but the racism is in the South African health system. If Semenya had grown up white in an affluent suburb of Cape Town, no way would this not have been diagnosed much sooner. Being poor and black and having limited access to health services meant Semenya got a long way before a diagnosis was made.

But a surgeon performed genital surgery - and they didn’t question, wonder, confer with colleagues?

@NotTerfNorCis

This is causing some confusion on Twitter. Some people still think Semenya is a 'cis' (e.g. female) woman and that the decision is horribly racist.

Yes, unfortunately. Seen in quite a few YT video comments as well. We could blame the media really as they've repeatedly stated CS is a female with an intersex condition.

It gives misogynists a thrill I bet to argue that women who oppose CS and other intersex athletes inclusion are just sore losers/racists etc.

Lua you are very misinformed.

I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

This. So very much.

Those people tweeting that nonsense have seen and been tweeted the facts and still ignore it. It would ruin their entire woke argument if they had to accept caster isn’t female or the c word. They’re relying on the racism angle to earn themselves cookies for being an ally. Let them make fools of themselves. Twitter isn’t real life.

But a surgeon performed genital surgery - and they didn’t question, wonder, confer with colleagues?

I’m not aware of any surgery? Not sure there would be any need.

The "racism" and "homophobic" angle makes them look stupid.

Especially when gay/bi, and black and brown women and men, start speaking out and pointing to the bleedin' obvious.

The racism inherent in the genderist movement is sickening.

See for example: White, genderist, racist Uni. students in London trying to tear apart black lead, grassroots women's collectives in South London.

I have immense sympathy for Semenya and the confusion around sexual development. It must have been very hard.

That does not detract from the fact that women lost out on medals and had their athletics careers ruined.

A male black athlete is a male black athlete.

Nothing racist, sexist, homophobic, ageist in pointing it out.