Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

queenofknives

I think there was a very effective PR spin that encouraged people to feel very sorry for CS and believe CS was a female with a DSD rather than a male. Must have been so frustrating for women athletes who knew what was really going on.

Now everyone knows why racist, women hating genderist institutions and groups have insisted on #nodebate

i.e Silence

@NotBadConsidering

Caster should not be allowed to compete in the women’s 800m category regardless of suppressing current testosterone levels because of all the other advantages that male biology has brought Caster and continues to provide. Semenya has 5 alpha reductase deficiency, a condition that only affects males. Semenya has all of the advantages of male puberty, plus an increase in VO2max, a male pelvis to improve running gait, and Semenya has never had to deal with a period, either in training or in competition. Semenya has known this for years, yet has continued to compete in the women’s competitions, winning medals, prize money, sponsorship that might have otherwise gone to someone else. I don’t feel sorry for Semenya, I feel sorry for those women who have missed out.

This is all there is to say.

So, what do you guys think if a biological male has lower testosterone level than the average male decide it is only fair he should compete with women. Would that be ok?

Just curious, because it seems like a good rule should be applicable both ways?

@ThousandsAreSailing

I too had a great deal of sympathy for CS until I saw an interview and it does appear that CS only identifies as a woman for sport and that males with this disorder are sought to take part in female competition

I may have watched the same interview, castor did seem to view women as 'other'.

I was also hugely sympathetic to castor, until I realised that castor and the team knew castor was biologically male, and had known for many years, but still chose to compete against women

So, what do you guys think if a biological male has lower testosterone level than the average male decide it is only fair he should compete with women. Would that be ok?

No, of course not. No male should be in female sports. The end.

What Milly said.

Lua

It's not just about testosterone, male biology confirs many physical advantages in the sporting sense.

@Lua

So, what do you guys think if a biological male has lower testosterone level than the average male decide it is only fair he should compete with women. Would that be ok?

Just curious, because it seems like a good rule should be applicable both ways?

That makes no sense. They could try to make a case for a male Paralympic category I suppose.

IMHO, no athlete with XY chromosomes, even if it is a 46XY dsd should be able to compete in the female category in sport. Semenya had a 30 race winning streak at 800m, holds the 600m World record.
I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

@Lua

So, what do you guys think if a biological male has lower testosterone level than the average male decide it is only fair he should compete with women. Would that be ok?

Just curious, because it seems like a good rule should be applicable both ways?

No, of course not.

Women's sports are for female athletes, not 'compromised' males.

No males should be in women's sport.

I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases

Yes.

I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

It’s more than a belief, it’s factual and demonstrably so. Even today, they’re still not reporting the full reasons. No MSM have reported this accurately.

@andyoldlabour

IMHO, no athlete with XY chromosomes, even if it is a 46XY dsd should be able to compete in the female category in sport. Semenya had a 30 race winning streak at 800m, holds the 600m World record. I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

Well said.

@MillyMollyFarmer

I believe the media has been complicit in hiding the true facts about this and other cases.

It’s more than a belief, it’s factual and demonstrably so. Even today, they’re still not reporting the full reasons. No MSM have reported this accurately.

The media's failure to accurately report 'problematic' news is leading to a widespread distrust of legacy news outlets. This has been explicit since 2003 onwards. This is an ongoing failure of the fourth estate and it is a very serious problem.

Lua
It is far more than just T levels, it is what happens to the human male body just before and after birth and at puberty. Leaner muscle, stronger, larger bones, higher oxygen levels in the blood, larger heart and lungs, different shaped pelvis, making the male body more mechanically efficient.

I'm not sure about those with complete androgen insensitivity; but I agree those with XY who have undergone male puberty and are at least partially androgen sensitive should not be allowed to compete in women's events.

I do still have some sympathy for Caster, despite thinking it's the right ruling, and even if it's true that Caster and coaches etc have known for years what the diagnosis is; it's still a complicated and confusing personal situation to grow up with, and to have to have discussed publicly

BovaryX Agreed. It’s more serious than most people realise. A distrust of media means we have a situation where nobody believes anything and serious issues are being mismanaged and misunderstood. I find it quite concerning, especially as the BBC are one of the least trusted by the public now. For good reason I think.

The article that @RandomNameForRandomThreads linked to is very clear that the media have deliberately obscured the fact that Semenya has XY chromosomes:

"How the Associated Press, Reuters, NY Times, NPR, Washington Post, and BBC could all leave this CRUCIAL fact out of their reporting is beyond me. Not a single one of them mentioned it at all. It should have been in the lead paragraph of every story so people like my mother, who sent me a confused email after she saw an article on Semenya, can really understand what this is all about. Instead, the closest we get to the truth was that some of the articles talked about how Semenya has intersex “traits” or “characteristics.”

and to have to have discussed publicly but that was Casters choice, in order to rob women of medals and sponsorship they pursued this relentlessly.

It's not just about testosterone, male biology confirs many physical advantages in the sporting sense

You see, to me that is the problem. It is not about her testosterone level, I agree. It is something else, but what exactly is it? and can we actually meassure it? I don't think is just about having a Y either. Most female athletes would beat most "normal" men.

I am pretty sure most athletes have something pretty extraordinary anyway, so how do we decide which ones are worth disqualifying?

It is a bit like trying to distinguish the different categories in paralympic games. I love the paralympic games, but I can't help thinking in some of the races that there are some gross mismatching.

I, of course, agree that gender is usually a fair charactheristic to categorize athletes. But I am sure there are many other traits that do give unfair disadvantage. So I cannot help but feel that Caster's situation do highlight the unfairness of it all. If we start digging as deep in every athlete we will find advantages in all of them. Some will be considered a "genetic gift" others will be considered "cheating".

I feel bad for her. But as the saying goes "Hard cases make bad law." If CS were allowed to run in women's competitions, countries which care about nothing except winning in international competitions will put their efforts into scouting for intersex athletes rather than encouraging girls' sports. Athletically talented girls will find themselves being pressured into things like synchronized swimming and gymnastics as these will be the only things that natal women have any chance of winning a medal in.

@Delphinium20

None of the three medal winners of the women's 800 meter medal winners in Brazil's 2016 Olympics were female. Caster Semenya, Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Nyairera Wambui have an intersex conditions. All three have XY chromosomes. I can't speak to whether or not the winners knew they cheated, but they were males in a women's race.

I feel sorry for the three women in 4th, 5th and 6th place.

That is really shocking, and yet surprising (not really) that it's not something widely known by the public. I confess that I didn't watch much of the Rio Olympics (I prefer the winter games/sports), but what was the crowd reaction when they received their medals? Were people aware at that time that all 3 were XY individuals?

Regarding testosterone limits in athletics, I think an upper limit of 5 is still too high if they are basing inclusion solely on that. It's twice the upper limit of biological women.

So CS is now married to a woman... are they a lesbian couple? The people who support Semenya, do they think "she" is a gender non-conforming female?

It’s about sex, not gender.

It’s about male physical advantage. And that is evident even before puberty. My kids do athletics and swimming. As age groups, on average, the boys outperform the girls at the same events even before puberty. Puberty then drives that difference even wider. There is no greater differential of human performance than sex. Look how stark the difference is:

boysvswomen.com/#/

And this is not to denigrate the female sex. It’s to accept that difference and to acknowledge the universal truth of it so we can have sport that women and girls can be successful in their own right.

I am pretty sure most athletes have something pretty extraordinary anyway, so how do we decide which ones are worth disqualifying?

XY chromosomes is a good place to start when it comes to women's sport.

Lua

None of your comment makes any sense. It’s almost like you’re deliberately trying to make this look more complicated or random than it is. It’s very clear what it is that makes males and females different, and what those differences result in physically in terms of speed, mass and strength advantages for males. It’s been discussed at great length. I’m not sure why you’re making it seem like it’s so hard to create categories we’ve been using for decades. We don’t have categories based on shoe size or other random things. This is biological sex.

And the Paralympic Games is just as careful and scientific about their categories.