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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya has lost appeal

506 replies

Mumsnut · 08/09/2020 23:16

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

OP posts:
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endofthelinefinally · 15/09/2020 19:00

You have only got to observe Caster for it to be obvious. Watching Caster's gait, looking at Caster's body, listening to the voice, observing the mannerisms and body language. There has been a lot of gaslighting.

Cailleach1 · 15/09/2020 19:23

You can see how CS has undergone male puberty. CS is not a female with hyperandrogegism. CS is more correctly a biological male with a dsd. CS has a huge amount of testosterone being produced by testes, compared to women, and that has formed the muscle and skeleton which is equivalent to other males. This is not in the ballpark of the other women in women's athletics.

CS has still got a carte blanche to use this male bodied advantage over the women in some distances. They can also compete in the other distances if their testosterone is brought down to a level which would even then be in multiples of the level of testosterone that would be natural for the women they would be running against. CS is producing and responding to their testosterone surge like other males. This is not AIS.

CS has an advantage that comes from a body which has gone through male puberty. What other woman will have that? Don't say the ones that get the silver medal and the bronze like in Brazil! If women are losing out to people with male bodies with a dsd like CS then they should create another class because the woman's one would be a farce. You may as well have all males running against women.

The issue is whether it is fair for women to have to compete with people with these male advantages. Irrespective of their situation or how they identify or live outside of the sport.

AlsoNotAGirl · 15/09/2020 19:31

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

> And let's remember this ruling doesn't stop CS running, it just stops them running against women. They can compete against other males.

No, CS can run against women. Just has to avoid 400,800,1500m & 1 mile. OR can race in those categories after reducing testosterone.

Seriously Confused ffs
BowlerHatPowerHat · 15/09/2020 19:56

This ruling affects the other two medalists on the Rio 800m, doesn't it?
If so, have they just bowed out of this controversy gracefully? I don't think I've read about them since the initial ruling.

Kantastic · 15/09/2020 20:15

Many people with Caster Semenya's condition perceive themselves as female.

Not doubting you necessarily, but could you please provide a link to back up the claim that many people with 5-ARD perceive themselves as female?

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 15/09/2020 21:02

www.jpurol.com/article/S1477-5131(18)30499-6/pdf

There is a document here

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/andr.12108

Describing almost universal male gender identity in 5ard cases raised as female.

But that is in India and mutations in India are not necessarily those in South Africa

There is a study here of 10 cases in the same family

cms.galenos.com.tr/Uploads/Article_1539/JCRPE-8-236.pdf

And gender identity and assignment both varied even within the same family.

In general it does seem that the male gender identity is likely to assert itself, but that is not inevitable.

in these cases they often want to try to achieve either a male or female phenotype and if the genitalia are highly undervirilized then a male phenotype might not be possible.

Clearly there is no fault in being born with a pseudovagina and not realising that one has a rare genetic disorder.

endofthelinefinally · 15/09/2020 21:02

There is so much misinformation being published about CS. It is infuriating.

NotBadConsidering · 15/09/2020 21:20

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

I don't think we need to be too condemnatory.

Caster Semenya appeared to be female at birth.

This is a condition with varied presentation depending on the genes.

Some with the condition will spend their whole life as women.

In some countries the majority will lives as women.

In others the majority as men.

There is no wrongdoing per se.

Caster Semenya lacks DHT to some degree. DHT is a potent androgen, more potent than testosterone in its androgenizing effect. While it's not considered anabolic, it's perfectly reasonable for Caster Semenya to argue the toss on this point, given that Caster Semenya does not have normal male biology.

'Playing with boys and wearing trousers' doesn't make you a man.

Having testes doesn't either, in all cases. Someone with testes but a completely non-functioning androgen receptor is very feminine and is for reasonable purposes a woman in that they have breasts and haven't experienced the effects of testosterone in their brain and are likely to perceive themselves as female. It isn't a trump card to say 'they are biologically male'. We do have to deeper than that.

Many people with Caster Semenya's condition perceive themselves as female.

It isn't really on for us to say 'Caster Semenya is a man', because Caster Semenya does not have normal male biology and had none of
an important male hormone before birth, and a low amount now. This is something to be argued in court, it isn't really possible to prove that people with CS' condition are on the whole competitive with men. They might or might not be. It seems fairly obvious that they have an advantage over women, but clearly a DSD doesn't allow us to just say 'this is a man, it's so obvious'.

However, having this been argued in court, Caster Semenya lost, and reasonably so.

A male with biology that isn’t 100% due to an enzyme deficiency is not female. Semenya discovered the fact that Semenya wasn’t female in 2009. Some people with 5-ARD don’t spend their lives as women, they spend their lives as males who might perceive themselves or be perceived by others as women, but they aren’t actually women. There’s a difference.

If having testes doesn’t make you a man, what does? The production of motile small gametes is the definition of the male sex at least. You’re using CAIS to make this point, but even people with CAIS are male.

Regardless of whether male = man, what is 100% true is that male == female and the category of sport is for females, not males who don’t neatly fit the male box perfectly.

The only way Semenya or anyone similar would qualify is if the IOC/IAAF/whichever relevant sporting body is for them to completely disrespect the female sports category and decide that it wasn’t worth protecting. That is what has happened and what is happening. Semenya should not have to reduce testosterone levels in my opinion, but Semenya should not be allowed to compete in any women’s sport, regardless of distance because nothing about Semenya qualifies to do so. “Perception” can do one.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 15/09/2020 21:44

Just found this in the ruling from the CAS, cited to Dr. Stephane Bermon of the IAAF:

"The DSD Regulations do not stigmatise athletes with DSD. The DSD Regulations stress the importance of strict confidentiality. These confidentiality provisions are effective. The IAAF dealt with [censored] cases under the Hyperandrogenism Regulations and at least [censored] further cases prior to that. The IAAF has never leaked any information about any of those cases; the identity of the athletes, their nationality and the number of cases all remain unknown outside the IAAF.
• The DSD Regulations expressly and emphatically stress that they do not connote any judgment or questioning of an individual’s sex or gender identity. They are also careful not to spell out that they apply only to 46 XY individuals with fully functioning testes.
• The DSD Regulations do not exclude affected individuals from competing in the female category."

In other words they set out to obfuscate and deceive the public about the fact that they were talking about women with bollocks.

This was the goal from the beginning.

The goal when they coined 'hyperandrogenism' to apply to people with male DSDs.

The goal when they added XX DSD CAH, placing restriction on women with hormonal disorders, so as to be 'balanced'.

And it continues to be the overriding goal when reporting on Caster Semenya.

Cailleach1 · 15/09/2020 21:53

Whether people choose to live in a certain gender is a different issue to the obvious advantage the surge in male hormones gives them over females in sport.

It is not uncommon for XY individuals with 5-alpha reductase deficiency reared as female to reverse gender assignment at puberty (16,17). Imperato-McGinley et al (18) interviewed affected 46,XY subjects and reported that 17 of 18 subjects with this disorder had, successfully, changed gender identity from female to male.

This must have been after their sex became evident on puberty.

Interestingly out of the 10 in the family studied, the only two that didn't show virilization at puberty are two pre-pubescent children. Presumably they will also undergo a surge in testosterone from their testes. Six of the 10 were raised as male or identified as male after virilization on puberty. The two who are still pre-pubescent so may identify as puberty is male.

Only two of the 10 family members have chosen to remain in a female 'identity gender' even after virilization of their bodies on puberty. Two of the other 8 have fathered children. We don't know if the others are young or unmarried and may yet go on to father children also. Or like many people they don't want children. I'm still not seeing females, even in this study. Two out of the ten who remain as raised with a female 'gender identity' after male puberty. But one out of 18 in the other study.

Familial and cultural issue are stated to influence in which 'gender' people may choose to live their lives. This is a sociological thing. I'm sure we wish everyone well no matter how they live their everyday lives. Doesn't make those who have undergone male puberty female bodied or fair to have them competing against women in sport.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 15/09/2020 22:03

A male with biology that isn’t 100% due to an enzyme deficiency is not female. Semenya discovered the fact that Semenya wasn’t female in 2009. Some people with 5-ARD don’t spend their lives as women, they spend their lives as males who might perceive themselves or be perceived by others as women, but they aren’t actually women. There’s a difference.

If having testes doesn’t make you a man, what does? The production of motile small gametes is the definition of the male sex at least. You’re using CAIS to make this point, but even people with CAIS are male.

No, you are simplifying this unduly.

People with CAIS are women. For starters they, er, don't, produce motile small gametes.

It is true that people with CAIS are biologically of the male sex.

But we knew what a woman was before we had ultrasound & DNA testing. And we didn't define it in terms

And someone born with a vagina who spontaneously develops breasts at puberty is very obviously a woman, and this isn't even particularly difficult to determine.

We can't say 'but akshually you are a man'

endofthelinefinally · 15/09/2020 22:11

Caster does not have CAIS.

NotBadConsidering · 15/09/2020 22:12

I never said people with CAIS are men. People with CAIS are male, have testes and don’t produce fully mature sperm because of lack of response to testosterone but do have testes that manufacture sperm in the prepubertal sense.

People with CAIS are women in the sense of their appearance and phenotype is so closely aligned to that of women it’s hard to distinguish and is much more acceptable by society, but the are not women in the sense of women = adult human female. This may sound harsh and I would never say “but you’re actually a man” but it’s reality.

And CAIS was found to be prevalent at a rate of 1:1000 female athletes at the Atlanta Olympics, compared to 1:20,000 in general population.

CAIS is the hardest problem to solve with sport, but is not relevant to Semenya anyway. Semenya has never had a vagina, uterus or breasts.

Kantastic · 15/09/2020 22:17

Shoots Thanks! So it seems that statement you made that "many" people with 5-ARD "identify as" female wasn't true. I was just curious as it struck me as unlikely.

It's also interesting that the life story that we can infer for Caster from the combination of the father's and the coach's testimony, of Caster being AFAB (in the actually-legitimate sense of the phrase) and realising their true sex at or before puberty, is very common among people with this condition.

As others have said, "identity" isn't relevant to whether males can compete in women's sporting competitions so it is a bit of a digression, but I thought it was an interesting one! Thanks.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 15/09/2020 23:08

Caster does not have CAIS.

No one said that.

I never said people with CAIS are men. People with CAIS are male, have testes and don’t produce fully mature sperm because of lack of response to testosterone but do have testes that manufacture sperm in the prepubertal sense.

No, pre-pubescent testes/CAIS do not manufacture any sperm, any more than a zygote can be called baby.

People with CAIS are women in the sense of their appearance and phenotype is so closely aligned to that of women it’s hard to distinguish and is much more acceptable by society, but the are not women in the sense of women = adult human female. This may sound harsh and I would never say “but you’re actually a man” but it’s reality.

It's not about distinguishing anything. Someone who is born, lives, and dies as a woman and without any exposure to testosterone is unambiguously a woman, and that is a true fact even if they have testes.

And CAIS was found to be prevalent at a rate of 1:1000 female athletes at the Atlanta Olympics, compared to 1:20,000 in general population.

No.

There were 7 AIS athletes at the Atlanta Olympics, out of 3523 women. (Which is 1:500, not 1:1000)

However it is likely that none of these were CAIS, but all 7 PAIS - Dr Bermon has only seen one case of CAIS in a female athlete. The other cases were all PAIS.

CAIS is the hardest problem to solve with sport, but is not relevant to Semenya anyway. Semenya has never had a vagina, uterus or breasts.

You should be more careful with your statements.

The top of the vagina comes from the Mullerian duct which would have regressed due to AMH from the testes, but the lack of 5-AR to convert T to DHT would mean that the urogenital sinus follows a female pathway, so the lower portion can be phenotypically normal female.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 15/09/2020 23:24

Thanks! So it seems that statement you made that "many" people with 5-ARD "identify as" female wasn't true. I was just curious as it struck me as unlikely.

No, my statement was correct.

We identified 434 cases of 5ARD2 deficiencies from 44 countries. Most came from Turkey (23%), China (17%), Italy (9%), and Brazil (7%). Sixty-nine percent were assigned as female. ... The overall rate of gender change from female to male ranged from 16% to 70%.

The diagnosis was done at childhood in 58%, at puberty in 25%, and adulthood in 17%.

Clearly the female gender identity might be 'in spite of' rather than 'because of' the disorder.

However all I said was that many people with this condition live as women, so so we don't need to set out to condemn those who have this condition and tried to compete as women, as many here have done, but should look to ruling bodies to be clear that they should compete in the male category, and that coaches of athletes of ambiguous phenotype should be seeking to clarify their DSD status (if any) at an early stage, with a view to directing their energies elsewhere (if ineligible), rather than perhaps as at present, encouraging them to compete as women.

There is no failure of the athlete or coach here - these are people with a partly female phenotype, who are nonetheless best judged male and excluded from female sport. But it really isn't their job to do that.

NotBadConsidering · 15/09/2020 23:39

No, pre-pubescent testes/CAIS do not manufacture any sperm, any more than a zygote can be called baby.

Males - anyone with testes - have all the precursors for sperm in prepubertal testes. Fully matured sperm aren’t formed in CAIS.

It's not about distinguishing anything. Someone who is born, lives, and dies as a woman and without any exposure to testosterone is unambiguously a woman, and that is a true fact even if they have testes.

Define “living as a woman”. It’s not unambiguous at all if someone is male in every sense apart from society’s perception.

No.There were 7 AIS athletes at the Atlanta Olympics, out of 3523 women. (Which is 1:500, not 1:1000). However it is likely that none of these were CAIS, but all 7 PAIS - Dr Bermon has only seen one case of CAIS in a female athlete. The other cases were all PAIS.

www.nature.com/articles/gim2000258.pdf

Look at page 4, top paragraph. Seven out of 3387 had AIS of whom 4 had PAIS and 3 had CAIS. That is an prevalence of 1:1000, compared to a population prevalence of approx 1:20,000.

You should be more careful with your statements. The top of the vagina comes from the Mullerian duct which would have regressed due to AMH from the testes, but the lack of 5-AR to convert T to DHT would mean that the urogenital sinus follows a female pathway, so the lower portion can be phenotypically normal female.

I don’t need to be more careful at all. If there is no cervix and uterus to connect to there is no vagina. A blind ended sheath that is embryologically derived from the same tissue and merely resembles a vagina externally is not a vagina.

NotBadConsidering · 16/09/2020 00:02

However all I said was that many people with this condition live as women, so so we don't need to set out to condemn those who have this condition and tried to compete as women, as many here have done

I will happily condemn Semenya. Regardless of how Semenya identifies - and that is open to question - Semenya discovered that Semenya is not in the biological category that women’s sport is for. Semenya ignored this and still competed anyway - and won - on the basis of feelings being more important. Women missed out as a result. I don’t care how people with 5-ARD choose to identify throughout their lives, but I do care that this particular person with 5-ARD chose to ignore biological reality for their own personal gains for 10 years at the expense of women.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 16/09/2020 00:20

Males - anyone with testes - have all the precursors for sperm in prepubertal testes. Fully matured sperm aren’t formed in CAIS.

These are diploid cells, in no possible sense sperm, immature or otherwise.

Look at page 4, top paragraph. Seven out of 3387 had AIS of whom 4 had PAIS and 3 had CAIS. That is an prevalence of 1:1000, compared to a population prevalence of approx 1:20,000.

The point there seems to be 6 out of 8 had gonadectomy. So I am not sure how they would have diagnosed CAIS over PAIS given the lack of T to start with.

More to the point the gonadectomy was presumably done during their sporting times because otherwise they would have been excluded from competition.
The difference now seems to be that gonadectomy is rare.

I don’t need to be more careful at all.

The point here is that the child is born with a blind vagina or pseudovagina. Their external genitals appear to the midwife to be female rather than male.

NotBadConsidering · 16/09/2020 00:34

The point there seems to be 6 out of 8 had gonadectomy. So I am not sure how they would have diagnosed CAIS over PAIS given the lack of T to start with.

Well obviously they were diagnosed with CAIS as teenagers, and were recommended to have gonadectomy. They weren’t diagnosed at the Olympics Hmm. And only 2 out of 3 of the CAIS had gonadectomy. Logically I imagine what happened was they were found to have 46XY then when asked, will hsve disclosed that they knew that and it was sorted out as a teenager. I would further speculate that the 2 who had gonadectomy probably came from countries with good health care where a lack of periods was fully investigated and the third person came from a country without that but we will never know now.

It still doesn’t change the fact that, although the numbers are small, it appears CAIS is over represented at elite athlete level by a factor of 20, showing that even without the androgenising effects of testosterone, a Y chromosome proffers advantage.

The point here is that the child is born with a blind vagina or pseudovagina. Their external genitals appear to the midwife to be female rather than male

Yes. Pseudo, which medically means false. A false vagina. So not a vagina at all.

Again, the only thing that seems to qualify Semenya for women’s sport is “feelings”.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 16/09/2020 00:34

Semenya discovered that Semenya is not in the biological category that women’s sport is for.

This is silly though.

There were dozens of previous cases where athletes had failed sex tests, undergone testing and told they could back and compete.

Including people with CS' condition.

It is just not true to say that there was a biological category for women's sport since in fact women's sport had spent decades going over the issue and deciding that, well, they weren't going to kick anyone out who had a DSD, and there was most definitely 100% no such category and this was completely settled and uncontroversial to pretty much everyone in 2009.

And none of these athletes were winning so it was all fine. Caster Semenya was novel, possibly because until quite recently it seems that these athletes were encouraged by doctors to have gonadectomies and hence CS won everything (which would not be the case post-gonadectomy)

So in the past a doctor told these people they had to have an op, and they did, and they finished twelfth or whatever, and we didn't really care either way.

And now the doctor says 'no, you are a woman, I have a doctorate in gender studies, you don't need to have your testes removed and you can marry a woman, keep going you are a true and honest woman'.

And you think that the wrongdoing is with the athlete!?

Caster Semenya does not owe anyone anything. If the rules say Caster Semenya is a woman then it's not really for Caster Semenya to withdraw.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 16/09/2020 01:24

It still doesn’t change the fact that, although the numbers are small, it appears CAIS is over represented at elite athlete level by a factor of 20, showing that even without the androgenising effects of testosterone, a Y chromosome proffers advantage.

Um now we're onto Y chromosomes!?

Make your mind up.

You seem to have an awful lot of unevidenced assumptions. In particular the idea that they werent diagnosed at the Olympics.

The text you link to is clear

"All had full physical examinations and
recommendations for follow-up care, including estrogen re-placement and appropriate surgical intervention"

They did SRY screening following which they had full examinations of those who were SRY+.

This has continued till the last decade
[2013 report]
"our elite young amenorrheic athletes with hyperandro-genism were referred to our Reproductive Endocrinology Department. Case 1 was identified through an abnormal
urine steroid profile and clitoral hypertrophy reported by
the antidoping officer, whereas cases 2 and 4 through in-
creased plasma T, and free androgen index and LH results
collected as a part of the Athlete Biological Passport (3).
Case 3 was directly referred to the international federation
medical department by her national federation doctor."

"The 4 young amenorrheic women, respectively, 18, 20, 21,
and 20 years of age at diagnosis, were from rural or moun-
tainous regions of developing countries. They had never
menstruated and this primary amenorrhea had never been
evaluated. Consanguinity was confirmed for 3 of them
(first cousins in cases 2 and 3 and siblings in case 4) and
was suspected in the fourth case (case 1), with the 2 parents
originating from neighboring villages (Table 1). All had
several brothers and sisters, including 1 sister who had
been surgically treated for a DSD (nonverified; case 2) and
1 infertile (case 3) (Table 1). They all reported unexpected
virilization at puberty with excessive pubic hair or clitoro-
megaly. In all cases, they had manifested strong motiva-
tion and high tolerance to intensive daily training, which
had made them good candidates for elite sports competi-
tion. However, none of them reported male sex behavior.
The clinical characteristics were quite similar, with all
presenting as tall, slim, and muscular young women but
with a complete lack of breast development and android
bone morphotype (high biacromial/bitrochanteric diam-
eter ratio) (Table 1). Axillary hair growth was slight and
pubic hair was female triangular, and none presented with
hirsutism. Clinical inspection of the external genitalia re-
vealed clitoromegaly in all cases, almost complete labial
fusion in cases 2 and 4, partial fusion in cases 1 and 3, and
a single urogenital orifice in cases 2 and 4 (types 2– 4 of the
Prader classification) (Table 1). Clinical palpation of the
major labia or inguinal region and MRI of the abdominal-
pelvic region determined the nature and size of the testes
and localized them at the inguinal orifice in cases 1 and 2,
intralabial in case 4, and 1 at the inguinal orifice and the
other sublabial in case 2"

"a short blinded vagina (22 mm) was identified in cases 1,
2, and 3"

"In contrast to the tendency to request gender change, our 4 athletes wished to maintain their female identity and
had many questions about menstruation, sexual activity, and child-bearing. Although leaving male gonads in SDRD5A2 patients carries no health risk, each athlete was
informed that gonadectomy would most likely decrease
their performance level but allow them to continue elite
sport in the female category. We thus proposed a partial
clitoridectomy with a bilateral gonadectomy, followed by
a deferred feminizing vaginoplasty and estrogen replace-
ment therapy, to which the 4 athletes agreed after in-
formed consent on surgical and medical procedures.
Sports authorities then allowed them to continue compet-
ing in the female category 1 year after gonadectomy."

So it's quite clear that in the past these athletes have come through, been identified during routine testing in most cases, and been directed to have gonadectomies in order to compete.

Which obviously they did, and in many cases I believe they will fallen away post-gonadectomy and not been competitive. E.g. Annet Negesa, who is probably one of the athletes mentioned above.

As far as CAIS goes the point was that androgen insensitivity is diagnosed by lack of virilization, which is subjective. It's not always associated with an androgen receptor gene mutation or deletion . So it's not clear that a CAIS Vs PAIS diagnosis is all that absolute, and hence whether in fact these athletes are benefitting in some way from the testosterone.

It does not seem plausible that such an overrepresentation is linked only to having a Y chromosome, whereas cases of pre-pubertal gonadectomy followed by oral oestrogen result in shorter adult heights than where no gonadectomy is performed, and oestrogen is endogenous, aromatized from testicular testosterone. I.e. they experience lower than XX female levels of oestrogen resulting in later bone maturation/taller height, and associated overrepresentation cf. XX female.

It doesn't seem that overrepresentation of athletes who had low levels of oestrogen because of not having ovaries is inherently problematic but the inclusion of athletes who have testes and who are significantly virilized is much more so.

NotBadConsidering · 16/09/2020 01:46

There were dozens of previous cases where athletes had failed sex tests, undergone testing and told they could back and compete

Yes, and this was wrong and set a precedent that undermined women’s sport.

It is just not true to say that there was a biological category for women's sport since in fact women's sport had spent decades going over the issue and deciding that, well, they weren't going to kick anyone out who had a DSD, and there was most definitely 100% no such category and this was completely settled and uncontroversial to pretty much everyone in 2009.

And this was wrong, there should be this protection and failure to do so has undermined women’s sport. Male people with DSDs should be excluded from women’s sport. Women’s sport should be for females only.

And none of these athletes were winning so it was all fine. Caster Semenya was novel, possibly because until quite recently it seems that these athletes were encouraged by doctors to have gonadectomies and hence CS won everything (which would not be the case post-gonadectomy). So in the past a doctor told these people they had to have an op, and they did, and they finished twelfth or whatever, and we didn't really care either way.

The fact we didn’t know about them and the fact they didn’t win - as far as we know - doesn’t correct the right injustice of it all. A woman would have missed out somewhere, be it not making a final or even finishing 13th instead of 12th. I care about that.

And you think that the wrongdoing is with the athlete!?

I think initially, someone not Semenya fully exploited this situation. We will probably never know. But Semenya has had ample opportunity since to not exploit this situation yet continues to try and compete in women’s sport.

Caster Semenya does not owe anyone anything. If the rules say Caster Semenya is a woman then it's not really for Caster Semenya to withdraw.

Only if there is a significant lack of integrity.

The CAIS discussion is completely pointless and not relevant to Semenya. To me it highlights benefits from the Y chromosome that make discussion about androgenisation immaterial and people with XY chromosomes should be excluded from women’s sport. The assumptions about timing of diagnosis don’t detract from the fact they’re over represented. Given as you say there is no objective way of quantifying virilisation and between PAIS and CAIS I think they should not be in women’s sport.

Again, the only thing that seems to qualify Semenya for the women’s category is “feelings”.

Women’s sport should be a protected category and all the Semenya case does is show how weak authorities are in protecting it.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 16/09/2020 02:43

Yes, and this was wrong and set a precedent that undermined women’s sport

Not in this way, no. The 1992/1996 cases appear to be mostly people who were androgen insensitive and who, even if they were overrepresented, didn't possess the huge advantage that processing male levels of testosterone gives over not.

Those with 5-ard and 17b-hsd3 deficiencies likely had gonadectomies or left the sport and in either way were not dominant.

And this was wrong, there should be this protection and failure to do so has undermined women’s sport. Male people with DSDs should be excluded from women’s sport. Women’s sport should be for females only.

This is not likely a position that will hold up. Again, even if people with CAIS are on average taller and are overrepresented in women's sport, the a priori assumption that they don't belong is not one that can be justified from basic principles, since they are in fact women.

Male sporting dominance is not about the Y chromosome, it is about testes producing testosterone in vast quantities and that testosterone being processed

Women's sport is for women, who to be sure are not people who have raised as boys and gone through male puberty, but there doesn't seem to be a pressing imperative to kick people out purely on the basis of overrepresentation or genetic tests.

The fact we didn’t know about them and the fact they didn’t win - as far as we know - doesn’t correct the right injustice of it all. A woman would have missed out somewhere, be it not making a final or even finishing 13th instead of 12th. I care about that.

That really depends doesn't it.

A child who was diagnosed with CAIS and had a gonadectomy as an infant, as is quite usual and recommended by many doctors, is of the class of women, not the class of men.

It is not clear why you think that there is an injustice when your assumption that sport was divided on the basis of chromosomes is not one that you prove. The ancient Greeks wouldn't have put CAIS in the male category, they would have said that this person is a woman.

Sporting performance is not about sperm and eggs but tesosterone, and whether one has been exposed to male levels of it.

Again, the only thing that seems to qualify Semenya for the women’s category is “feelings

Eh? The reason is the female phenotype at birth, hence female gender assignment, so the starting presumption is that Caster Semenya is a woman.

Following that CS' doctors and lawyers saying 'having little/none of this male hormone means that CS is for sporting purposes a female'

This argument failed, but it was there to be made, in that it clearly is not the case that women's sport is strictly about chromosomes in that there are plenty of edge cases such as SRY reversal, mosaicism, chimerism and so on that even as a definition it's a poor one that fails to address the meaning of male puberty.

NotBadConsidering · 16/09/2020 03:42

Not in this way, no. The 1992/1996 cases appear to be mostly people who were androgen insensitive and who, even if they were overrepresented, didn't possess the huge advantage that processing male levels of testosterone gives over not.

This is where we disagree. I am saying that the advantage is enough that it should have warranted exclusion.

This is not likely a position that will hold up. Again, even if people with CAIS are on average taller and are overrepresented in women's sport, the a priori assumption that they don't belong is not one that can be justified from basic principles, since they are in fact women.

Women in terms of phenotype but with a karyotype that confers advantage. I estimated it is an advantage by a factor of 20. In the paper linked it records the incidence of AIS as 1 in 60,000 so the advantage is potentially x60.

Male sporting dominance is not about the Y chromosome, it is about testes producing testosterone in vast quantities and that testosterone being processed

Mostly yes, but the over representation of CAIS in elite sport shows that there are advantages beyond testosterone. If it can be demonstrated on repeat epidemiological testing that the Atlanta games was in fact an anomaly and CAIS does not in fact occur at a rate 20-60 times higher in elite athletes compared to the general population then I would concede that.

Women's sport is for women, who to be sure are not people who have raised as boys and gone through male puberty, but there doesn't seem to be a pressing imperative to kick people out purely on the basis of overrepresentation or genetic tests

There should be. All females entering elite sport should have mandatory SRY screening and those who have a Y chromosome be investigated appropriately. Put some measures in place to protect women’s sport.

A child who was diagnosed with CAIS and had a gonadectomy as an infant, as is quite usual and recommended by many doctors, is of the class of women, not the class of men

This is just silly, you can’t diagnose an infant with CAIS.

It is not clear why you think that there is an injustice when your assumption that sport was divided on the basis of chromosomes is not one that you prove. The ancient Greeks wouldn't have put CAIS in the male category, they would have said that this person is a woman

We now have the means and ability to appropriately classify women’s sport for females and we should do so to ensure the protection of women’s sport from now on to prevent the Semenyas of the future from taking opportunities away from women. Who gives a shit what the Ancient Greeks did? Hmm

Eh? The reason is the female phenotype at birth, hence female gender assignment, so the starting presumption is that Caster Semenya is a woman

In 2008. Not from 2009 onwards when it became clear that Semenya is male in every biological sense apart from appearance of external genitalia. At that point the birth “assignment” should have been consigned to the bin. However it wasn’t and since then Semenya has been allowed to compete based on legal obfuscation and feelings.

This argument failed, but it was there to be made, in that it clearly is not the case that women's sport is strictly about chromosomes in that there are plenty of edge cases such as SRY reversal, mosaicism, chimerism and so on that even as a definition it's a poor one that fails to address the meaning of male puberty.

The legal argument failed 10 years after the information came to light. Women lost out as a result.

“Edge cases” should be managed before and at the time, not 10 years after women have lost numerous opportunities as a result.

Women’s sport should be about chromosomes. Protect the sport. Make it for females only. Any “edge case” can argue for inclusion before denying opportunities from women.