Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

I always like to contrast the case of Erik Schinegger, who had a similar (or the same) condition.

Good article and interview here: Intersex skiing champion – who competed as a woman before discovering he was a man – becomes latest athlete to say transgender women should NOT compete in female events.

He was treated harshly, but he came to accept that it wasn't fair for him to have taken women's medals, and now opposes transwomen in female sport.

Interestingly his Wikipedia page calls him "transgender" (added by an anonymous editor without comment some time ago). I guess from the current formal definition he is - he was "assigned female at birth", wrongly, and now "identifies as male". Not sure he'd call himself that.

Just checking up on that editor. Might not be the most reliable source - their only other edit was to "raisin" the same day - where it was recorded that they could also be laid by pigeons.

Getting sidetracked...

Correction to the above - it wasn't the raisin Wikipedia editor who added the transgender bit, it was someone else anonymous all of whose edits are on American LGBT, intersex, or women topics. Still, the raisin thing was fantastic. Check your sources, people! Especially in anything LGTBQIAWTF-related... The fact that so few real publications can't bring themselves to admit that Semenya is male, like Schinegger, is appalling.

Semenya and Semenya's family, trainers and coaches etc have known for now over 10 years. Semenya was on a women's South Africa football team now I heard? Welcomed with open arms, perhaps there is a sporting advantage to having a male on a woman's team...

I did feel sorry for Semenya for the DSD condition and growing up in challenging circumstances (as do many others in SA) but not now, due to the lies and cheating and the fact that Semenya has a fulfilling relationship, family and is well-off.

If you look at the races and how Semenya would have faired against men in the 800m you can see why Semenya chose to race as a woman, against women, who are biologically female.

This is the right decision. Caster has known about this since they were a teenager, according to their coach they’ve used male pronouns all their life. Who knows. But I don’t think it’s Caster that’s been had, it’s everyone else. The media spin on this is unbelievable, perhaps partly due to wanting to avoid racism claims- South Africa have claimed this is behind the objections to an XY athlete competing in the female category.

She is a pretty unusual case, she was raised female and only when her periods didn't start was there indication of what was to come. The chromosomal testing was a shock to her and her family, I know someone who is a personal friend.

This is a young person who is neither one thing or another, not straightforward at all. It's unlikely to occur here in the U.K. now as we would test a baby who had ambiguous genitalia these days whereas I believe her parents were reassured she was female but unusual.

The chromosomal testing was a shock to her and her family,

Highly unlikely, as puberty would of raised issues if there weren’t issues raised before then. Others claim there was.

I’m afraid you don’t understand intersex conditions. The false outdated belief ‘they’re not one thing or another’ is not factual. Most intersex people are still either XX or XY. Caster is XY.

Will this decision be a benchmark for other XY persons?
A friend of mine got very impassioned about the mistreatment of Caster previously - arguing that people though she was a man because she wasn't feminine enough, and she thought there was a significant amount of racism to that thinking.
Its not an unreasonable argument but I do wonder how she might feel about that now.

I’m sure her chromosomal test was a shock but her actions afterwards warrant no sympathy from me anymore. All those female athletes denied a podium place, sponsorship fees etc because they’ve been competing against someone biologically male? That’s so unfair. You’re beaten before you’ve even set foot on the start line and CS was more than happy to continue to compete in the female category without any thought to the consequences on women’s athletes as a whole.

@NotBadConsidering

The diagnosis of 46XY and 5 alpha reductase deficiency was made in 2009, around the age of 18-19 or so, so Semenya spent 10 years competing fully in the knowledge of biological male advantage and was happy to win medals and money. It wasn’t like it was revealed after all that, it was before. Why should anyone feel sorry for Semenya? If the correct decision had been made in 2009 then none of the success Semenya achieved would have been allowed, so it worked out well considering. Other women have missed out, though, including Lynsey Sharp who was vilified and missed out on a medal in 2016, despite being correct.

Those 10 years happened under 'license'.

The IAAF and IOC commissioned a lot of research in order to be able to make a decision based on hard science - the kind that TRAs will not be able to refute. I was a small part of some of that research, colleagues in various places have done a lot of re-working of old research with a new focus in order to give very specific answers.

Consistently I have posted here that Semenya had every right to fight for her right to carry on competing even after her 'diagnosis'. It is her life, her way of earning a living, all she had been brought up to know. It isn't her fault she was born where and as she was! There needed to be legal rulings for intersex athletes!

There were no fact based rulings prior to her case. Sport is a multi billion pound business. It needed absolute, specific evidence before it could make a final ruling. That and, like the RFU/World Rugby, most sporting associations, NGBs etc do want their sport to be as fair and accessible as possible.

Now most of that science is in, more studies ongoing to add to questions thrown up over the years, and Semenyas continued fight to compete. Long term that will be a good thing. All the bollocks about levels of testosterone as sporting classes will be swept away once even the most woke of people realise the very real advantages male bodies have in many sports.

Many other changes wil happen too... keep an eye on ultra endurance sports. A lot of the research done for this issue has spilled over into training regimes and women are benefitting from that, a lot!

@movingonup20

She is a pretty unusual case, she was raised female and only when her periods didn't start was there indication of what was to come. The chromosomal testing was a shock to her and her family, I know someone who is a personal friend.

This is a young person who is neither one thing or another, not straightforward at all. It's unlikely to occur here in the U.K. now as we would test a baby who had ambiguous genitalia these days whereas I believe her parents were reassured she was female but unusual.

It does t matter how Semenya was raised. What matters is the tge XY chromosomes

It does t matter how Semenya was raised. What matters is the tge XY chromosomes And it is that intransigence that makes it bloody difficult for intersex athletes to have any discussion about their participation.

You don't have to lose your humanity with your deisre to see sport, and life, being fair for all!

Good. It's cheating, and they know it. All medals and achievements should be withdrawn retrospectively IMO.

I don't think that any new evidence based rules should mean retrospective punishment for this athlete,not any other with a DSD. But perhaps some recognition for those who 'missed out' would be appropriate.

What I don't understand is that I thought it was fairly established treatment to remove internal testes because of the risk of cancer. (Do correct next if I'm wrong, I might be out of date). If Caster had done that then it would have solved the testosterone problem as well as providing health protection for the future.

I lost all sympathy for Caster after seeing an interview where they talked disparagingly about women and made very clear they did not see themselves as one.

I'm very glad of this ruling - since Caster has been allowed to compete there have been scouts searching for young athletes with the same condition, intentionally looking for a group of males who were allowed to compete in women's events.

This is the right decision. I am glad the judgment has been upheld.

They need to go further now and make clear that anyone who has XY chromosomes and is androgen sensitive cannot compete in the female category at all, regardless of how much they later lower their testosterone levels.

Wow. Knew the entire time.

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/caster-semenya-to-miss-tokyo-olympics-after-ruling-86hn8t0p7

If someone has a share token. Just also read a second article but can't find it now.

Think there are loads of inaccuracies and also with the comments, am assuming this is because it's a load of blokes talking about women?????

I think if someone knows they're cheating with a ridiculously unfair advantage and deliberately keep doing it anyway, they should be wiped out from the records entirely. Their name shouldn't be celebrated anywhere.

I can't think of a real equivalent right now, but it would almost be like someone who happened to be born who could breathe underwater, purposefully taking on every swimming championship. No one else would stand a chance but that person wouldn't have deserved to win, they weren't really competing.

I would be especially delighted to see all the men erased from women's medals and championships, but I also think this about other kinds of cheats too like proven drug takers.

It will never, ever happen of course, for all sorts of reasons, but I can daydream.

Good! I feel for all the other female athletes that were cheated out of medals

I believe Cais Claire on twitter has the same DSD as Caster. She writes very movingly about the condition, if anyone wants to know more about what it's like to go through this:
differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I do think the right decision has been reached regarding the rules around the 800 metres.

What I don't understand is that I thought it was fairly established treatment to remove internal testes because of the risk of cancer. (Do correct next if I'm wrong, I might be out of date). If Caster had done that then it would have solved the testosterone problem as well as providing health protection for the future.

My understanding is that that is the case for 46,XY CAIS DSD, but not 46,XY 5ARD.

The latter (which CS has) is a very different condition to CAIS: the body does produce and react to normal levels of testosterone (hence the full male virilisation at puberty), they just cannot convert the testosterone into dihydrotestosterone because there is a deficiency in the 5-Alpha reductase enzyme. Without sufficient levels of dihydrotestosterone the male genitals don't form correctly in the womb.

So basically, aside from a misshapen penis, people with 5ARD are fully male.

Isn’t it interesting what an advantage those testes have given her? 🤔

@KatVonlabonk

I believe Cais Claire on twitter has the same DSD as Caster. She writes very movingly about the condition, if anyone wants to know more about what it's like to go through this: differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

I do think the right decision has been reached regarding the rules around the 800 metres.

This is incorrect, CAIS is not the condition Semenya has, it's 5ARD.

I would be much more sympathetic if it was CAIS, that's very different.