Caster Semenya has lost appeal

[Mumsnut]

Hard on Semenya, but the right outcome overall I think

If her condition has occurred naturally, then it’s not an “unfair” advantage, any more than being naturally taller than average is.

Of course having extra testosterone is an unfair advantage, that's why testosterone injections and testosterone boosting supplements are all banned.

I think you are muddling up unfair advantage and cheating. She had a naturally occurring unfair advantage. If there was a time that she didn't know it was because she is biologically male, it wasn't cheating. She knows now, and I really feel for her, but I feel more for women robbed of victories because they were competiting against somebody with an unfair advantage, one that they couldn't match.

Let's not hide, or silence the fact that Castor is NOT the only male competing in elite athletics under the guise of being female.

The Olympics are tainted.

Forget hormone tests as a starting point.

ALL single-sex competitions need to begin with the premise of sex-testing. A easily conducted test.

I’m sure it was Sharon Davis who has talked about sport talent scouts who actively look for outlying (female) athletes - for DSD / advantageous conditions. CS is not the only (recent) current runner with a question mark hanging over their biology.

When national prestige and huge £ comes into play, any advantage is taken. Just think how many top flight tennis players are affected with heart conditions / asthma... ^^

The lines between drugs / masking agents / therapies / medically prescribed drugs ... what’s the difference? One is legal, the other illegal - at a given point in time. DSD type conditions are just another avenue to exploit.

So if you have a weak governing body, a country turning a blind eye, a coach willing to pump the athlete full of drugs and suppress information, topped by a very focussed motivated athlete - there you have it. Everyone’s a winner, earning £££ & adulation.

I’m not sure why anyone is surprised by this. Both the athletes taking the offered advantage and the international bodies being so weak. What does surprise me is the lack of investigation from third parties and ability to publish any investigations. Where’s the heavy weight investigative journos ( Pilger types)? Hat’s off to anyone who has questioned this, given the self employed nature of most journalists

I long to see a big name male athlete take a public stand - go on, I dare you. Self id. Play in a big £ televised tournament. Golf, tennis, football, anything. I imagine behind closed doors they’re in agreement with Sharron Davis but are too spineless to put their cushy commentating jobs / consultancy’s on the line.

The racism inherent in the genderist movement is sickening.

There are scores of these comments, saying that Semenya is female and that 'white women' are trying to drag Semenya down. Posts about 'whining' and 'crying' and 'complaining' white women. It's weird - I'm sure these people think they're ultra-progressive, but they're actively stirring up racial tensions, and attacking a particular group of women for their skin colour. Plus, aren't black women also losing out to Semenya?

TRAs certainly have a thing about accusations of racism. It suits them to argue that you either swallow genderist ideology whole, or you're a white supremacist. That's racist in itself because it's denying agency to anyone who isn't white.

Great post Aunty

TRAs certainly have a thing about accusations of racism. It suits them to argue that you either swallow genderist ideology whole, or you're a white supremacist. That's racist in itself because it's denying agency to anyone who isn't white.

Yes.

There are scores of these comments, saying that Semenya is female and that 'white women' are trying to drag Semenya down. Posts about 'whining' and 'crying' and 'complaining' white women. It's weird - I'm sure these people think they're ultra-progressive, but they're actively stirring up racial tensions, and attacking a particular group of women for their skin colour. Plus, aren't black women also losing out to Semenya?

There are plenty of back and brown women opposed to males and Caster in female sports. Are these people making these statements saying black and brown women who think a certain way are white? Because we already have the left thinking they’re owed our vote, and women’s too. Categorising this as a white v black argument is so utterly racist I cannot even begin to explain how offensive it is. Anyone saying that can fuck off. Males with intersex conditions are not the same as black or brown women. It’s so gross to even go down that road.

I don't feel sorry for her at all.

As the philosopher Jagger once said 'you can't always get what you want'.

"Males with intersex conditions are not the same as black and brown women."

This.

How often do we have to read "...and ALL women....including Transwomen....and black women."

Fuck. Off.

Black and brown women are women....who happen to be black or brown. Not. Men. Not in the same category as males.

I, of course, agree that gender is usually a fair charactheristic to categorize athletes

Agree with whom? 'Gender' would be a completely unfair and irrelevant way to categorise athletes - although unfortunately it is being used now. The fair categorisation is sex.

What Errol said.

@MillyMollyFarmer

There are scores of these comments, saying that Semenya is female and that 'white women' are trying to drag Semenya down. Posts about 'whining' and 'crying' and 'complaining' white women. It's weird - I'm sure these people think they're ultra-progressive, but they're actively stirring up racial tensions, and attacking a particular group of women for their skin colour. Plus, aren't black women also losing out to Semenya?

There are plenty of back and brown women opposed to males and Caster in female sports. Are these people making these statements saying black and brown women who think a certain way are white? Because we already have the left thinking they’re owed our vote, and women’s too. Categorising this as a white v black argument is so utterly racist I cannot even begin to explain how offensive it is. Anyone saying that can fuck off. Males with intersex conditions are not the same as black or brown women. It’s so gross to even go down that road.

Well said. It is a deliberate tactic. Its aim is to not only silence dissent, but to make it impossible to raise any questions at all.

@ColleagueFromMars

If her condition has occurred naturally, then it’s not an “unfair” advantage, any more than being naturally taller than average is.

Of course having extra testosterone is an unfair advantage, that's why testosterone injections and testosterone boosting supplements are all banned.

I think you are muddling up unfair advantage and cheating. She had a naturally occurring unfair advantage. If there was a time that she didn't know it was because she is biologically male, it wasn't cheating. She knows now, and I really feel for her, but I feel more for women robbed of victories because they were competiting against somebody with an unfair advantage, one that they couldn't match.

Caster had an unfair advantage over women because of being incorrectly identified as female. Caster is unfortunately a male with a DSD who may be disadvantaged versus other males.

Black and brown women are women....who happen to be black or brown. Not. Men. Not in the same category as males.

We need to keep making this point. Over and over. My sweet grandmother would be horrified that in this day and age black and brown women are still being compared or lumped in with men. I’d love one of these awful people spouting this crap to say it to my mum. She won’t take that for a second. She just told me the other day she would ‘get arrested and rot in prison if I have to, like my ancestors’ if any male entered a women’s space near her. She’s 75 and already complained to her gym about a transwoman in the changing area. She goes every day asking for the policy and warning them she’ll chase any man out if she has to. If my old Ma has the guts to do that, we all need to shrug off the fear and stand up for ourselves too.

@PurpleHoodie

Let's not hide, or silence the fact that Castor is NOT the only male competing in elite athletics under the guise of being female.

The Olympics are tainted.

Forget hormone tests as a starting point.

ALL single-sex competitions need to begin with the premise of sex-testing. A easily conducted test.

In the Cas report, this is mentioned, names redacted. Section 322, page 81 of 163

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

46 Male athletes competing in female categories. And that was then.

46?!

46!

No wonder they have redacted the names.

No, 46XY! Chromosomes!

Ah, yes. Have read more.

So the findings are that the sexes are still split into two (female and male) but those with certain DSDs have advantages/disadvantages conferred upon them.

Still within those two sex categories.

Dr Bermon went on to explain how performance data demonstrate that female athletes with 46 XY DSD are hugely over-represented in top performances across various athletics events.

Does this doctor mean there are 46 men with this condition competing as women?

No, males with 46XY chromosomes. The report stylises 46XY as 46 XY throughout.

But Dr Bermon gives 5 examples but their names have been redacted

Datun

Page 81 point 319. Is a VERY interesting read.

Page 81 point 321. They have purposefully redacted the numbers of male athletes (and the % numbers, as well as names) from the report.

Absolutely disgraceful.

I thought she was under the impression that she was biologically female since birth and only recently found out she had DSD? If so, I’m inclined to say let her compete as a woman, since that’s what she always believed she was

I get that this is well intentioned and meant kindly, and likewise that it is not nice to see someone sad that the answer has been no - particularly when it is someone perceived as disadvantaged or vulnerable.

But do you see here that you are see female sports and every female involved in them as so unimportant that you'd just hand them over as a consolation prize to an unhappy male?

The comment from the philosopher on yesterday's thread is very relevant here. Female anything is seen as terra nullis - a blank canvas especially to male people, that can be imprinted on or used or colonised for the benefit of male people who need more space, as if it's a space where no indigenous people already are.

Female sport (in fact all female space) is seen as so unimportant, and those females so invisible, that making use of those spaces to raise up unhappy, disadvantaged males seems like a good use of that bit of unwanted space.

Fundamental problem here. Really fundamental.