Single sex spaces

[MiladyRenata]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/08/businesswoman-launches-legal-action-against-the-garrick-club

I'm genuinely curious about what the defenders of women only spaces feel about men doing the same sort of thing.

Clearly there are some reasons why this might be asymmetrical; men are likely to have far fewer reasons for feeling physically safer in a single sex environment, for example. But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

The reasons behind excluding males from women's changing rooms and for excluding women from men's clubs aren't in any way related though.

Excluding women from an exclusive men's club could surely be seen as diminishing their opportunity to network with their peers. Excluding males from female spaces is primarily a safeguarding issue.

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

My understanding of the exemptions in the equality act is that there does have to be a good reason.
Women believe there are very good reasons for various types of female-only spaces and services. Prisons, refuges, services for rape victims (there should be services for male victims too, of course). Places where women are vulnerable and where we know mixed sex can be problematic - changing rooms, loos. There are strong arguments for girls' schools. I'd say there's an good case for male voice choirs indeed being for male voices.

But social clubs, particularly ones which probably functions as part of the power structure of the 'old boys networks'... not so much. In the case of the Garrick, given that women are allowed as guests - second class citizens, in effect - no case at all.

Leaving aside safeguarding issues (lets assume they can be dealt with via appropriate separate facilities), do you think it would be acceptable to set up a women only equivalent of the Garrick?

Male only spaces that are not based around networking for employment, politics or business I think are no problem.

The problem is when political or business deals happen in those spaces and women are then excluded from participating in political/business life and major decision making processes.

I don’t think any of us want access to men’s toilets, changing rooms, sport clubs/competitions, male voice choirs, men’s health issues groups or other such activities which have no impact on careers, politics, law making and so on. If we are able to have women only versions and in some cases mixed sex versions where applicable of the above.

Single sex spaces and gatherings are not only about safety.

There are perfectly reasonable times and places and reasons why any group of people may require to be able to group themselves by class and state boundaries. No problem with that at all.

do you think it would be acceptable to set up a women only equivalent of the Garrick?

A club which only women could be members of but which allowed male guests? Wtf would be the point of it?

Thinking of it, a number of therapeutic groups - I think AA is one of them - offer male only groups for the reason that they have attendees who feel the quality of what they get out of the group is much higher in a male only environment, for a number of reasons. A woman being present, however much she may want to be and feels she would personally benefit, would remove the facility from every other man there. Who'd want to do that?

@MichelleofzeResistance

There are perfectly reasonable times and places and reasons why any group of people may require to be able to group themselves by class and state boundaries. No problem with that at all.

Exactly.

The two issues are not symmetrical.

In certain situations, women need spaces to be single sex, for safety and dignity and to exclude man who want to otherwise exploit the women in those spaces.

Men wanting spaces away from women, to follow a hobby, an interest, or just for male company, isn't a problem at all, in my opinion.

Men wanting male only spaces in order to cement power, make deals, and exclude women, is.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Male only spaces that are not based around networking for employment, politics or business I think are no problem.

The problem is when political or business deals happen in those spaces and women are then excluded from participating in political/business life and major decision making processes.

I don’t think any of us want access to men’s toilets, changing rooms, sport clubs/competitions, male voice choirs, men’s health issues groups or other such activities which have no impact on careers, politics, law making and so on. If we are able to have women only versions and in some cases mixed sex versions where applicable of the above.

Single sex spaces and gatherings are not only about safety.

This.

Thank you for posting this interesting debate. It illustrates the inequality between women and men. Men’s single sex spaces are often very privileged such as this were people with power can network with each other the single sex spaces we are fighting to preserve are places like domestic abuse centres that we go because we are vulnerable.

I have just left an abusive relationship I am very nervous of being around any men (or adult males). I can’t even be hugged by my dad. I am going to do a group course for women who have been victims of abuse. I can only go to this because it is single sex.

I do think that men need single sex spaces too. For example I don’t think my dad would feel comfortable in a mixed sex hospital ward. I also think mixed sex changing rooms are a bad idea. Obviously there needs to be safe alternatives for people who do not fit in the gender binary. I am sure we can work out a situation which safeguards everyone’s rights.

Can transwomen be members of the Garrick club? They can join the Masons I believe.

Mens mental health groups was an example not long ago. There was a group who had to stand its ground on barring all females including transmen.

Changing rooms are an obvious one.

Medical services eg. prostrate

Masons made guidance on the issue recently.

Can Transmen join the Garrick and the Masons?

@DaisiesandButtercups

Male only spaces that are not based around networking for employment, politics or business I think are no problem.

The problem is when political or business deals happen in those spaces and women are then excluded from participating in political/business life and major decision making processes.

I don’t think any of us want access to men’s toilets, changing rooms, sport clubs/competitions, male voice choirs, men’s health issues groups or other such activities which have no impact on careers, politics, law making and so on. If we are able to have women only versions and in some cases mixed sex versions where applicable of the above.

Single sex spaces and gatherings are not only about safety.

That's a good clear explanation, although I don't agree!

Personally, I've never had a problem with men only spaces, whatever they are being used for. I don't really see how one can police what is discussed or where people choose to meet. I mean, public spaces, absolutely. But private clubs, golf clubs? I think that's up to whomever wants to start or run a club. I don't see how one can police it fairly. People in power will discuss careers politics law-making wherever they can - force them to admit women and they will find a new space, surely?

I’ve just been sauntering through twitter and saw a tweet supposedly from Virgin Active saying that their changing rooms were open on the basis to gender identity.

So if you have a gym membership... do remember to check their policy.

As a trans woman I would never want to share a changing room with either men or other women. Which leaves me a bit stuck, sadly, unless suitable individual facilities are available.

I tend bit to use changing rooms in gyms if I can possibly help it - they tend to be a bit gloomy and smelly.

You can’t really avoid them when swimming and I’m blind as a bat, so showering is a bit of a pain as there aren’t any hooks or shelves outside the row of cubicles in my local pool, so I have to leave my glasses on the other side of the corridor on a bench.

When they were open I would go when it was absolutely dead but it’s in a university and very wokey - it also has lots of posters around demanding that I am ‘kind’ and don’t challenge anyone I see in there (being blind as a bat I am more likely to ask ‘do they usually let giant caterpillars in the changing rooms?’).

MiladyRenata Ive often wondered why more transpeople arent campaiging for unisex privisions in addition to male/ female ones.

I work with teenagers, including transboys who cant really use male or female spaces comfortably. Additional areas seems to make sense.

@GoodyWoolf

Can Transmen join the Garrick and the Masons?

I don’t know about the Garrick, but if a male bodied person is a member of the Masons and decides to identify as a trans person, they can stay. Female bodied people who identify as trans, can’t join.

I suppose "unisex" areas would become male by default. Any that aren't specifically female only is not a safe space for women. Most men wouldn't be fussed however.

I’ve just seen the Virgin Gyms thing Serenity - strange that it is fine for a 9 year old boy to use the men’s changing rooms on his own but it’s too dangerous for a fully grown person who was also born with a penis.

Does the gym have the right to assume that the 9 year old boy doesn’t identify as a girl?

Do places like gyms assume any apparent male that enters the women’s facilities is self declaring as female or would they expect the trans person to ask permission to use the facilities of their choice? Does anyone have any direct experience of this as staff for eg?

Bannatine gyms don’t allow this. Their changing rooms are by sex.

OK, we're going off topic but never mind.

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.

At the same time, I really don't want to be walking into an open plan men's locker room wearing a frock.

We're not out to upset people and invade spaces. We just want to get on with our lives like everybody else.

I think Milady it comes from the vast numbers of people who seem to be loudly demanding the right to access women’s spaces. They are quite noticeable on social media if you want to take a look?

I appreciate that you don’t so the third spaces solution would work for you? As it has been discussed a number of times it seems that this option would acceptable to a number of people.