Single sex spaces

[MiladyRenata]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/08/businesswoman-launches-legal-action-against-the-garrick-club

I'm genuinely curious about what the defenders of women only spaces feel about men doing the same sort of thing.

Clearly there are some reasons why this might be asymmetrical; men are likely to have far fewer reasons for feeling physically safer in a single sex environment, for example. But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

With female spaces seen by males - as discussed on several threads today - as unused, unoccupied space for males to spill over into as needed as extensions and alternatives to the existing male space.

Indigenous people in those spaces? Not important enough to consider, and nothing they have to say about it is worth listening to apparently. The focus should solely be upon the needs, feelings and requirements of male people.

I think it might be easier to draw the biggest possible circle on an A4 piece of paper to represent trans women, and then use the tip of your pen to make the tiniest possible dot to represent trans women who expect a female beautician to wax their testicles.

The transactivist approach to impact analysis!

But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

I'm a bit confused by this question OP - what harm is done by exclusive female only spaces?

Interesting thread though. I suppose when I think of male equivalents to female only spaces, I tend to think like-for-like. But, as you say, it's not really like that is it? It's not the same.

Some of these males are sexually motivated, but all these males need the women in that space to remain there irrespective of whether they want to or not.

Whether it's for sexual reasons, validation reasons or ostensible safety. The women are the tool that these male individuals are insisting on utilising.

Hadn't thought about it like this before. Great stuff as usual Datun

Milady - you say that trans women on the whole don't want access to women's changing rooms. That may be true, though the evidence suggests otherwise. But the point is that there are plenty of sexually predatory men who do want access to women's changing rooms (why wouldn't they?) and if they can get that access by claiming to be trans women, then of course they will do that.

@MiladyRenata

I think it might be easier to draw the biggest possible circle on an A4 piece of paper to represent trans women, and then use the tip of your pen to make the tiniest possible dot to represent trans women who expect a female beautician to wax their testicles.

I thought Yaniv did that not because of being trans but because of being a racist arsehole.

I'd love to see those stats that show that transwomen don't want to access women's spaces.

I'm going to be waiting ages, aren't I?

Talking of circles, OP.

I thought Yaniv did that not because of being trans but because of being a racist arsehole.

There are a million reasons why predators predate. The point is he was allowed to do it, because of laws that say women aren't allowed to exclude him.

Men everywhere, obviously, will explore any law they possibly can. He has targeted those women twice. First of all on the phone to trick them into sexual touching without consent, and secondly by forcing them to go to court.

And, as far as I recall, the judgement only found in their favour, because they hadn't been trained in waxing male genitalia. Not because they don't want to touch the genitals of a man who wonders, all over social media whether or not he can help 10-year-olds with their tampons.

Clearly there are some reasons why this might be asymmetrical; men are likely to have far fewer reasons for feeling physically safer in a single sex environment, for example. But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

Hmmm. I've been to the Garrick quite a few times - both socially (good friends of mine are members) & professionally.

There is a whole universe of difference between lunchtime at the Garrick, and a woman's refuge, or a changing room, or a rape crisis centre.

Frankly, it's places like the Garrick which maintain the social and political conditions which require places of safety for women, as well as reams of anti-discrimination & anti-sexism law and policy.

I mean the food is delicious, but it's not worth the social cost.

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

How many women & girls raped, sexually harassed, perved on (a clear form of sexual harassment), violently attacked therefore needing single0sex safety of a refuge - HOW MANY women is "a really good reason" ?

And Fionne Orlander is a legend and a star. With fantastic taste in frocks rather than emulating a drag queen

You can’t really avoid them when swimming and I’m blind as a bat, so showering is a bit of a pain as there aren’t any hooks or shelves outside the row of cubicles in my local pool, so I have to leave my glasses on the other side of the corridor on a bench.

Off topic, but you can buy prescription goggles relatively cheaply - especially if you go for the off the peg, same script in each eye option. It’s life changing! There are several online providers & Specsavers do them for about £30.

Oh yes, I found a store online who makes your goggles - you just send your prescription and they were about £17 (not a 'simple' prescription - quite different in each eye). You can't wear them in the shower though!

do you think it would be acceptable to set up a women only equivalent of the Garrick?

My club, the University Women's club was set up (if I recall correctly) at a time when women had extremely limited opportunities to go university (my grandmother graduated from Oxford in the early 1920s - only the second cohort of women "allowed" to take a full Ox degree), and they were subject to harassment and exclusion. So of course they banded together to help each other.

The Equalities Act talks about a policy to achieve a proportionate aim.

Is organising in the face of male entitlement, male privilege, male violence, male sexism and misogyny good enough for you?

Actually, it's not for you to say. It's for women.

but if a male bodied person is a member of the Masons and decides to identify as a trans person, they can stay. Female bodied people who identify as trans, can’t join

That, together with the fact that a transman could not inherit a title, rather gives the game away doesn't it?

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from.

Ooh, I don't know. Probably only the entire human history of male voyeurism, sexual harrassment and assault. Women, eh, what fusspots they are about this.

I know @Antibles, we're really unreasonably picky, aren't we?

I presonally don't give a shit about men's spaces - if they want them, fine, whatever. It's not because they're scared of being raped, or recorded, or stalked, or spied on, or are concerned for the safety of their children, or are a Muslim woman being excluded from things that they used to be able to do, is it?

@MiladyRenata

OK, we're going off topic but never mind.

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.

At the same time, I really don't want to be walking into an open plan men's locker room wearing a frock.

We're not out to upset people and invade spaces. We just want to get on with our lives like everybody else.

Really? Tell that to the transwoman that got me kicked out of my gym lockerroom for good.

Standing at the sink in my underwear rinsing blood out of my workout pants I felt a presence behind me. I turned to acknowledge the person behind me and was very surprised to see a 6'4"+ 240lbs+ TW completely naked with a giant uncircumcised penis.

I felt panicked, my heart began to race, I was feeling vulnerable, weak, and in a lot of pain for my period started while working out. I put my very wet workout pants back on and began to gather my things - and the TW was still standing there completely naked except now staring at me.

Since they were staring at me I felt it necessary to tell them "when in Rome do as the Romans" and "in the ladies rocker locker room that means avoiding full nudity as much as possible". This individual began screaming at me while naked calling me a Terf with penis swinging and I started crying like a little fuckwad. I left the locker room as fast as I could - the individual followed me out in a towel into the main gym area still screaming Terf and bigot at me.

The general manager treated me very poorly and told me that since I am a transphobe I should either use my home bathroom facilities or do a check of the locker room before using it to ensure that I wouldn't offend anyone with my presence.

Nothing crazy happened the TW didn't touch me or do anything to me beyond yell but they did chase me out of a space that was supposed to be meant for me - a biological woman.

I am still seeking recompense for all of the fees they have charged me since the following incident and refuse to refund (including $1,500 in personal trainer fees specific for hip/shoulder rehab paid in advance as they require a bank of money to be submitted before commencing training). I have a small claims case filed against the gym but as they changed their policies of access to the facilities I will likely lose and they will get to keep all of that money that they required be paid up front for services they never rendered.

Tell me again how transwomen and any man claiming said status presents zero safety concerns to me. Tell that to the women seeking refuge at the Downtown Eastside Women’s Centre (DEWC) in Vancouver, CA. Tell that to the numerous women and girls that have had a terrifying (or violent or sexual assault) experience with a transwoman (or otherwise identified male) in their space (public bathrooms, changing rooms, etc.). The fact is, you have all the benefits of a male body - regardless of surgeries and/or CSH. Your body, your hormones, your vulnerability is not like mine - it is equally important and worthy of compassion but different from females and requires a space away from females for everyone's dignity/safety/comfort.

You need your own space, I respect that 100% and agree that it would be the best outcome for trans individuals. I need my own space, respect that or don't but I won't stand idly by why you try take over spaces made for me by people like me (adult human females that campaigned and fought for my sex-based rights).

Erm

This attempt to draw equivalence between women demanding access to all male spaces where deals, policy, decisions are made

And men demanding access to all female places where women are taking their knickers off

Is preposterous.

If male spaces were protected like that all the way through there would be no female mp s FFS.

This is the most stupid equivalence I have ever heard .

Where men's spaces are a proportionate thing for a legitimate aim then they're fine. Women have no issues. I posted some examples upthread.

@FireUnderTheHand so sorry that happened to you That TW was harassing you by staring & behaving threateningly. No woman would behave so threateningly in a gym changing room, and if se did, she'd be rightly disciplined.

I truly hope that I'm never in that situation - I don't know my gym's policy, but I'm pretty sure that, like you, I'd be the one punished. Not the harasser

@MiladyRenata

OK, we're going off topic but never mind.

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.

At the same time, I really don't want to be walking into an open plan men's locker room wearing a frock.

We're not out to upset people and invade spaces. We just want to get on with our lives like everybody else.

@MiladyRenata you've changed your tune from the Anne Sinnoit thread you tried to derail where you were haranguing posters on there and stating that not only TWAW but they also that they are female.

I am suspicious of your motive for posting this thread.

[quote ItalianHat]@FireUnderTheHand so sorry that happened to you That TW was harassing you by staring & behaving threateningly. No woman would behave so threateningly in a gym changing room, and if se did, she'd be rightly disciplined.

I truly hope that I'm never in that situation - I don't know my gym's policy, but I'm pretty sure that, like you, I'd be the one punished. Not the harasser[/quote]
Thank you - I originally posted that back in May 2019 under my original username (before I locked myself out of my protonmail lol).

It is a shit situation to be in and was the final straw in destroying any 'kindness' I felt I should incorporate into consideration of inclusion of males in female spaces (short of children being accompanied by a female guardian).

If you were in a female only changing room and a stark naked female came and stood behind you and stared at you, you'd assume she was unwell, it would be threatening and you'd probably get away asap and talk to staff. Who would probably be highly sympathetic. It's odd and threatening behaviour, and inappropriate in a changing room.

When a stark naked male does it its fucking terrifying, and a hell of a lot more threatening. And yet any reaction you make and any attempt to speak to staff, the female is at fault for somehow not producing the response the male wanted? Which in this situation was what? What could the female have done that was right? A cynic might wonder if the excuse to start shouting names and dominating/scaring a female was what the desired goal was from the start.

Also see the anonymous accounts on FWR from nurses who have accommodated male people on their request on female wards, I remember one commenting that of the several times it had happened in the course of a year, each one of those male people have behaved inappropriately (I believe the nurse said these behaviours involved things like threatening to rape staff, exposing themselves) and after several days the hospital had gathered sufficient information to move the male person elsewhere. Several days . To cover their backs sufficiently from the male person's potential kickback from being removed from a female only space, and being accused of transphobia. Several days in which all the females on that ward were expected to just suck up this male person's actions and the impact on them.

Anyone who sees females as full human should be outraged by this, and that this has been enabled to happen.