Single sex spaces

[MiladyRenata]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/08/businesswoman-launches-legal-action-against-the-garrick-club

I'm genuinely curious about what the defenders of women only spaces feel about men doing the same sort of thing.

Clearly there are some reasons why this might be asymmetrical; men are likely to have far fewer reasons for feeling physically safer in a single sex environment, for example. But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics.

Unbelievable. Why on earth would women accept this? How could anyone in good faith propose such a new label for women?

I was also boggled by the use of "non-cis women" on the notorious Tedx tweet. I assume they didn't mean "I'm not fucking cis" women (Those would be "cis women" to them).

Back to the topic, to repeat various previous posters, of course males should have their single sex spaces, the problem being when they make the "halls of power" into male only spaces.
And even though some women have managed to rise above the glass ceiling or enter the "halls of power," it's often women who can win male approval, or are willing to sell other women out to get there.

Well. The way transwomen feel about going into the men's space? Exactly how many women feel about going into a space that may contain a male. How is transwoman's fear of men to be accommodated but women's is not?

Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics.

I'm not sure if we're allowed to break out the song titles again here but rest assured, they're all going through my head.

@ArabellaScott

Well. The way transwomen feel about going into the men's space? Exactly how many women feel about going into a space that may contain a male. How is transwoman's fear of men to be accommodated but women's is not?

Sorry, ArabellaScott, but I disagree with you on this. I believe that many women are much much MORE frightened of male bodied people who disrespect women’s rights to a female space. Women are generally smaller and weaker than men and our subconscious puts us onhigh alert when someone none female enters a space that is supposed to be reserved for women and girls. A male bodied person, no matter how they identify, has a better change of fighting back. The last person I want to share a space with, is someone who knows that their presence will frighten some females, but disregard that and puts their need for validation first.

I believe that many women are much much MORE frightened of male bodied people who disrespect women’s rights to a female space.

I dont believe transwomen are afraid if using the mens at all tbh

No reports as far as im aware in the UK of transwomen being beaten up by men in a men's toilet.

And if it was really dangerous then they wouldn't be fine with the idea that the same men who would apparently beat them up in the mens being able to self ID themselves into the ladies right behind them.

They also wouldn't be absolutely fine with the introduction of unisex toilets where the women's has been completely removed.

Its bugger all to do with safety

I accord this belief system the same amount of respect as I do all belief systems which subordinate women to men.

In fact less, since it has produced nothing of cultural or artistic merit.

Its bugger all to do with safety

There are no campaigns, at all, from what I can see, to promote actual safety for transwomen that don't involve access to women's spaces.

Nope.

Especially at least in the UK thet are indeed the safest demograohic ajd have to resort to using statistics from prostitution in Brazil or something when prostitution.itself is a highly risky activity any many many women are also killed.

Omg that’s incredible. Women are incredible

@littlbrowndog

Omg that’s incredible. Women are incredible

Too right

@Whatwouldscullydo

I believe that many women are much much MORE frightened of male bodied people who disrespect women’s rights to a female space.

I dont believe transwomen are afraid if using the mens at all tbh

No reports as far as im aware in the UK of transwomen being beaten up by men in a men's toilet.

And if it was really dangerous then they wouldn't be fine with the idea that the same men who would apparently beat them up in the mens being able to self ID themselves into the ladies right behind them.

They also wouldn't be absolutely fine with the introduction of unisex toilets where the women's has been completely removed.

Its bugger all to do with safety

I've asked and asked for this evidence that TW are being beaten up by men when they use the male toilets, I've researched and nothing, nada, zero. However, I am easily able to find evidence of TW assaulting or abusing women in female toilets, funny that.

It is bugger all to do with safety it's all about validation, power and control.

@DickKerrLadies

Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics.

I'm not sure if we're allowed to break out the song titles again here but rest assured, they're all going through my head.

You'd better change your NN. And they're going to have a heck of a job adjusting the wording on 'your' blue plaque, unless they make it a lot bigger. (I was in a traffic queue by it yesterday)

You're right, Deliciously. It's not the same. But even if it were, it doesn't make sense! The narrative we are being asked to believe is that transwomen are afraid of being attacked by males in men's spaces. Therefore they have to use the women's spaces. And women are for some reason not allowed to say they are afraid of transwomen.

I think there's a character limit on MN usernames. We could do with something a little shorter, perhaps.

Talking of birth and observed anatomical characteristics, my sex was known before birth. Therefore I am not in the category of 'Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics'. How invalidating and exclusive such a definition is.

Imagine trying to write all that on a Birth Certificate, Passport, Drivers Licence, etc.

We would have to have different descriptions for those assigned prior to birth via ultrasound, those assigned prior to birth by testing, and what about those implanted during IVF?

What a crock of shit, shows the ridiculous nature of this entire ideology and agenda.

Bluntly, I don't care how TW feel about going into men's spaces.

That's a problem for men to get together and sort out. Not women. We're not your mum.

No coco you are right

I really really really resent the fact that in order to have a remotely justifiable case to keep hold of our legal rights, we have to sort out everyone else's problems first .

Just no.

Sick of M** sitting back doing fuck all then complaining and/or playing the victim because we didn't centre them.

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.
And yet I keep reading that trans women have been using women's facilities for aeons 'undetected' and women have never objected before. Genuinely confused, are there no TW in women's spaces or are they all there?
A TW friend of mine used women's facilities exclusively. She had had surgery - penile inversion, breast implants - and I think she felt she deserved to use womens spaces because of that. She's well over six feet tall so even with feminine features and behaviour it's difficult to blend in with women whose average height is about a foot shorter.
She was also scathing about TRAs but I won't be specific in case that could be interpreted as a 'sweeping generalisation'.
She moved away and we drifted apart which is a shame as I'd love to get her take on the current state of affairs.

As is the fact we carry our own grand children inside us if we have a baby girl.

That fact has blown my mind!

This is one of my most favourite facts, and invokes a feeling of reverence within me.

I lost my grandmother and mom while I was still in my 20’s and the fact that my grandmother carried me and my mom at the same time gave me comfort, and still today can make me cry.

Women are astonishing which is a pity as we also seem to be evanescent.

Hi, A woman is born with some or all of the following: a vulva with vagina and clitoris, a uterus, fallopian tubes, ovaries, the potential to have secondary characteristics at puberty e.g. breasts, and to have the ability to lactate for an infant born of her body. She will also have XX or pos XXX chromosomes. A man cannot become a woman, and transwomen are not women, they are a subset of men.