Single sex spaces

[MiladyRenata]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/08/businesswoman-launches-legal-action-against-the-garrick-club

I'm genuinely curious about what the defenders of women only spaces feel about men doing the same sort of thing.

Clearly there are some reasons why this might be asymmetrical; men are likely to have far fewer reasons for feeling physically safer in a single sex environment, for example. But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

The end point from the way things are heading fast is:

Completely de-couple anything to do with female human biology from the words woman, girl female. Note, this is not happening around male biology and man, boy, men.

The words woman, girl, female are reframed as 'identities' that anyone can adopt (as per OP who not only says TWAW (definition, adult human female, now considered a 'dog whistle' at best and hate speech at worst)

Any reference to female ...??? biology to be referred to in a standalone way irrespective of the dehumanising inhumanity in referring to (group with no name any more) as ovulators, gestators, menstruators, cervix-havers etc etc even though this will mean a lack of clarity around women's reproductive health etc with the obvious results

All the things that women fought for and are seen as important for (group with no name) around the world - single sex toilets, prisons, hosp wards, changing, sports etc etc essentially done away with

No stats that are meaningful to describe the experiences, difficulties, oppression, etc etc of (group with no name)

So the 51 % of the population who have been subjected to oppression all over the world and as long as anyone can remember, the group that still has to fight and fight to get their voices heard, the group that are still have an awful lot of struggle even in supposedly 'developed' countries

Have no name to call themselves as a group, no way of organising as a group, and no statistics to back up their arguments.

Well that sounds just AWESOME.

OP I really want you to answer this.

If woman, girl, female are identities that anyone can adopt

What are the half of the population who used to have the words woman, girl, female, to call themselves as a group.

I really really would like an answer.

If you don't answer I can only assume that you were posting in bad faith. As a PP seems to have suggested.

What should we be called now? I would like a clear answer. Not subgroups. Not body parts. One word for all billions of people on the planet who used to be called women. Girls. Female.

Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics.

@MiladyRenata

Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics.

Catchy....

Nah. I think we'll be sticking with the usual scientific definition of 'female' - applicable to many species of plant and animal, and woman for specifically human females.

I find it really pathetic how much mental gymnastics some people are willing to do to obfuscate the definition of woman to fit their agenda. No matter how much surgery a person has, hormones they take, dresses and makeup they wear, and self-validation they indulge in (not to mention forcing others to validate them), a male will always be a man. Whether he likes it or not.

Okaaay

So earlier I on the telly an advert for a a charity. It's on quite a lot. In Corona I imagine lots of us might have seen it.

I can't remember the exact words but something like

Sad music

I can't believe a girl of 12 is going to be forced to have sex with a grown man

So OP

Your preference would be

Sad music

I can't believe a person assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics aged 12 is going to be forced to have sex with a grown man

Is that correct?

Someone thinking they can identify as a woman is nothing more than western privilege and narcissism. Imagine if all the little girls and women all over the world being raped, trafficked, mutilated, abused, sold as child brides, etc, could just tell their abusers "oh actually I identify as male".

OP? Thank you for replying with your proposal. Is my example of how that would work in line with your thinking?

Honestly I'm interested. Obviously I think your new way of describing (people who no longer have a word) is not great.

This is honestly what you think would be good?

This attempt to draw equivalence between women demanding access to all male spaces where deals, policy, decisions are made

And men demanding access to all female places where women are taking their knickers off

Is preposterous.

Quite.

🤣

There's also a new word (or long phrase) needed for when babies are (sexed?gendered?) before birth.

As we all know, the missing millions are a big problem. Not just because the are destroyed due to , but because the imbalance of (can't be arsed... people) with other people leads to a worse time for the people who I described at the beginning, from the other people who are not the ones I described at the beginning.

OP can you give an assist? I find your proposal to be... Not great. Any other ideas?

They do it on a scan though usually so that won't work.

OPs proposal is that we cede the terms woman, girl, female. Globally. And replace with the phrase above.

I hope any lurkers are ingesting that.

What happens with other animals, mammals. For consistency, the terms there will need to be aligned. We are animals after all. How will biology be taught? How will breeding programs for endangered animals be discussed? Using the above phrase?

Wtf am I supposed to call my DC?I had an amnio so we didn't need to observe anatomical characteristics.

Oh dear. Pity the thread fell through the looking glass:

When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.’ ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’ ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master - that’s all.

• OPs proposal is that we cede the terms woman, girl, female. Globally. And replace with the phrase above.

I hope any lurkers are ingesting that. *

Or nontranswoman, iirc.
So expanding, Non (Person assigned Male at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics) who says they're a .... I'm sorry no idea what goes here ... on the basis of something....

Why do you want to change the meanings of words Ren?

The meaning of words has been changed.

Across NHS, schools, prisons, awards, sports... Woman and girl are gone.

Female is going.

OP is simply engaging to explain how things will be.

OP is not the only person by a mile who sees female as an identity.

If course
Man boy male don't seem to have changed

And strangely there seems to be little pushback around stuff overseas..

The complaints about the term 'fgm' didn't get much traction.

Plan etc are still allowed to talk about girls without complaints as far as I know.

@MiladyRenata

OK, we're going off topic but never mind.

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.

At the same time, I really don't want to be walking into an open plan men's locker room wearing a frock.

We're not out to upset people and invade spaces. We just want to get on with our lives like everybody else.

In that case Milady why don't you and your firends join in and help us out here? I am sure that you would not like to be confronted with a self id in the moment wanker no more than most of would be - right? So raise your voices against the few arses that are out for their own gain.

Looks like a bog standard courgette flower to me, Butterer.

Persons assigned female at birth on the basis of observed anatomical characteristics
Scientifically inaccurate and biologically ill-informed.

Females are the producers of large gametes; males produce small gametes. This holds for all mammals. We are mammals. Mammals are sexually dimorphic.