Single sex spaces

[MiladyRenata]

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/08/businesswoman-launches-legal-action-against-the-garrick-club

I'm genuinely curious about what the defenders of women only spaces feel about men doing the same sort of thing.

Clearly there are some reasons why this might be asymmetrical; men are likely to have far fewer reasons for feeling physically safer in a single sex environment, for example. But if a group of men want to create an all male space because they feel happier there (for whatever reason), does it do any more harm than an exclusive female only space?

Alternatively, is it fundamentally unhealthy to operate sex exclusive spaces at all unless there is a really good reason for doing so?

@RedDogsBeg

I still maintain that trans women are women (and female), hence the term "trans women".

I should, perhaps have said "a changing room where non trans women are undressed"

Hope that tidies things up for you.

That is the best classification you're prepared to allow half the human race to name and define themselves? 'Non trans women'?

Is it possible for me to be a transwoman then?

What does the word female mean to you?

Your preferred vocabulary then puts trans women as women, and women (the commonly understood meaning) as non trans women.

That's interesting because that approach seems to be more widely pushed at the moment.

Your view also means that trans men are men and male. So should naturally be in prison with men, in secure mental health facilities with men, etc etc.

Yes?

I am aware that trans women identifying as female from birth is gaining ground.

I'm really interested to hear more of your views.

....but all these males need the women in that space to remain there irrespective of whether they want to or not.

......The women are the tool that these male individuals are insisting on utilising.

It's not about the space. It's about the women in that space.

My god! That’s exactly it! We are expected to be used by them! I’ve always concentrated on the fact that so many women don’t want them there and knew they insisted on using the space for validation, but the way you have put it is brilliant. As usual.

I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from. Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed. Because, well, biology.

It makes sense that the last place somebody suffering from gender dysphoria would want to be is in an open changing room.

However, 'trans' includes anyone who says they are trans.

Self ID and 'acceptance without exception' give power to abusive men who can enjoy the power play of forcing women to accept their presence in female only spaces because "how can you say I'm not trans".

I think you also have to accept that some women have reason to fear men.

I still maintain that trans women are women (and female)

But unless you can explain the common factor that people in the category 'woman' share, that doesn't make sense.

Why can't there just be cubicles in changing rooms?

@FrenchtoEnglish

Why can't there just be cubicles in changing rooms?

Because you can’t force people to use them and many women will still feel unsafe in the changing room with a male bodied person. What’s to stop anyone from stripping naked in the charging room? The only way it would work, is if they all open into a corridor and the businesses either wing or can’t spend that kind of money.

I think it might be easier to draw the biggest possible circle on an A4 piece of paper to represent trans women, and then use the tip of your pen to make the tiniest possible dot to represent trans women who expect a female beautician to wax their testicles.

It really doesn't matter whether the person referred to here in the case we all know about is more representative of trans people or abusive men.

They were able to use the Canadian legal system to abuse women.

And in my post that I asked to have deleted due to accidental misgendering of yaniv, I pointed out that yaniv used the legal system as a threat to extort cash. Many women paid yaniv off to the tune of a couple thousand dollars each I think it was. Some closed their businesses. Yaniv targeted women with 'foreign' sounding names who were working from their own homes and advertised as women clients only.

The courts didn't want to let the lawyer/ public know about the case/ which women etc due to sensitivity iirc around the nature of the claim. So the women who were threatened with court or pay up had no way of knowing that the case had been taken up to fight for them, that it was happening to other women etc.

This was all enabled by law. This tiny pen dot of well, just one, who cares.

[quote MiladyRenata]@RedDogsBeg

I still maintain that trans women are women (and female), hence the term "trans women".

I should, perhaps have said "a changing room where non trans women are undressed"

Hope that tidies things up for you.[/quote]
I repeat myself...

The fact is, you have all the benefits of a male body - regardless of surgeries and/or CSH. Your body, your hormones, your vulnerability is not like mine - it is equally important and worthy of compassion but different from females and requires a space away from females for everyone's dignity/safety/comfort.

You need your own space, I respect that 100% and agree that it would be the best outcome for trans individuals. I need my own space, respect that or don't but I won't stand idly by why you try take over spaces made for me by people like me (adult human females that campaigned and fought for my sex-based rights).

TW 'identify as a female' and/or 'identify as women' but are not demonstrably female as per chromosomes, hormonal levels, genitalia (original or restructured), upper body strength, lung capacity, pelvic bone size and placement, etc. TWATW that's a fact and the sooner TW TRAs (and their apologists) accept that the better off we will all be. That's the truth and the truth doesn't make me mean or fragile, it means I acknowledge/observe and exist in reality.

There is room for all of us but for that to be harmonious it requires all of us to acknowledge and respect material reality.

Schrodinger's cat, because we (females/girls/women) don't know what we are or that we actually exist until a man 'opens the box'.

'Why can't there just be cubicles in changing rooms?'

I didn't realise till I had kids that a lot of activities are run in schools in the evening.

Schools obviously have big communal single sex changing rooms. I mean yes single ones would be lovely but space/ cost/ getting them all changed and out would be a nightmare.

The swimming lessons the kids had, at schools in the evening, had single sex, and ages from 5 or so up to 60. The learners, the club swimmers, the trainers.

So yes cubicles would be nice but... Not how it is.

Also. Cubicles only work if floor to ceiling with lockable doors because of putting cameras under/ looking over/ drilling tiny holes etc. But that comes with risk. Someone slips and knocks themselves out. Who knows? No one till the end of the day.

Also in mixed sex cubicle changing the instances of sex offences of voyeurism etc are way higher than when it's single sex.

Men can also get access more easily to plant cameras.

Obligatory namalt. But the people who do this sort of thing, are almost always men.

From op for example

'Leaving aside safeguarding issues'

Most women and girls NEVER leave aside safeguarding issues.

Because

Of multiple experiences with creepy men

And

Because we are told constantly by the media and society that we are at risk from men and if anything does happen probably it will be our own fault.

Also op

'I don't know where this obsession with males entering women's facilities comes from'

Same answer as above.

And this sounds harsh. But it's a massive part of the consequences of both sex (bio) and gender (male and female socialisation).

The idea you, op, have, is that you're female, and a woman, but you can't understand any of this at all.

The fact that you can't, throws a massive spanner in your whole approach.

Closed cubicles worries me - as an endo sufferer I occasionally lose consciousness during menses due to shock (extreme blood loss, iron deficiency, hypoglycemic, pain is off the Richter scale). It worries me because if I go down unseen and hit my head I could die in a closed cubicle with no one searching for me except DH when he realizes I never made it home from a meeting/outing/grocery/whatever. This happened when I was in my early 20s - when he showed up I didn't know who/where I was and had been unconscious for a while as I suffered a concussion upon crashing down and had a small but heavily bleeding head wound. I don't look like I have any issues so when no one saw me leave the assumption was that I left and no one noticed. NO ONE NOTICED and I was unconscious under my fucking desk at the front of the office where every single person has to pass by to leave the suite. Imagine if DH had to find me in a cubicle at an assumed location as I don't report back through the day on all of my movement about the city?

Having the opposite sex in a sex-based space when this happens is terrifying (see gym post).

I'm a CSA and rape survivor, endo champion, and born female - but my experiences are muffled and discarded in favor of males that identify as female. Single cubicles and mixed sex facilities don't work for women like me as well as many other women with their own reasons.

Because we are told constantly by the media and society that we are at risk from men and if anything does happen probably it will be our own fault.

Agree - prevention of abuse is obviously always preferable, but with such limited access to legal recourse, many women feel its also the only option.

I still maintain that trans women are women (and female), hence the term "trans women".

Most trans women, including myself, would be absolutely mortified by the prospect of entering a changing room where women are undressed.

OP, even in the space of 24 hours, you can't keep your story/ideology consistent.

The thing about separte closed cubicles & mixed sex spaces is that I would miss the single sex spaces. It's not just about being able to hide there for safety, privacy, dignity. It's also been a place where women hang out, have a laugh and shared experiences. I dont see why women have to lose that.

*separate, ffs. THERES A RAT IN SEPARATE.

The other point about lockable floor to ceiling cubicles is you can get shoved in them and they're much more soundproof.

I remember a time I was getting in the lift by myself and a male colleague gave me a 'playful' shove from behind.

I spun round with a panicked look and he was... 'what?'

I said, for a moment I thought someone is pushing me in, doors close what's going to happen?

He was baffled. At work? In the office?

Yes, at work in the office.

Underlying a lot of this is that most men have zero idea how women feel at all. And they don't want to. (Metoo - waah I can't even look at a woman any more!)

Transwomen are neither women nor female.

Transwomen - the word by defenition means male. A male cannot be a Female.

*definition