Everyday Racism Instagram on "Karen"

[Mizzler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEpA-dlMjj_/?hl=en

I've been trying to learn more about race and racism since the BLM protest movement appeared and I'd been following this Instagram account as a way of trying to understand more about the issues involved.

This post has really troubled me though and I'm struggling to articulate why. I think it's because whilst I completely accept that black and minority ethnic women suffer great disadvantages in the UK, I'm very uncomfortable with the "Karen" meme. It strikes me as deeply misogynistic. In this post, they make reference to a "Karen" asking to speak to a manager as a way of asserting authority. Isn't that what women SHOULD be doing? Being assertive isn't the same as being aggressive, even if women behaving assertively is perceived as aggression by a patriarchal society.

I feel like I'm rambling here and I'd be very grateful for other people's thoughts.

I think it was on this thread that someone mentioned the awful sexist and racist treatment of Priti Patel.

It triggered a vague memory. Sort of unrelated to Priti, but I remembered it because she's Asian. As are the Asian Karen group of people.

It's definitely racist to use this name as an insult.

australiankarenfoundation.org.au/karen_people_18.html

'She’s just an ‘annoying’ woman of a certain age and has only recently been an explicitly white woman.'

So any woman who is no longer 'fuckable' and makes the mistake of not blending quietly into the background then...

I think that saying it's racist because of the Karen people is a bit random.

It seems to be applied to white women in UK and USA.

Can you expand?

As an aside. I don't know why people keep talking about racism. It's definitely sexist and ageist. Isn't that enough?

The idea it's racist is one that will cause a lot of disagreement and divert the thread.

The misogyny and ageism meanwhile is undeniable.

It's just another of telling women to stfu.

You think it's acceptable to use an ethnic group's name as an insult?

Erm

Your main issue with this is that the name Karen, used because it's a name that apparently applies to a certain type of woman in the USA, is racist because it's the name of a group of people descended from a Mongolian people who are in modern day Burma and being persecuted?

Your argument then rejects the random complaints that it's racist against white people.

But that Karen should not be used as an insult in USA/ UK not because it's sexist and ageist but because it's insulting to the Karen people of Burma? Even though actual women in the USA called Karen are getting shit because of the meme.

Do you believe the name Karen is an insensitive name for people to name their daughters in the USA and UK?

I don't like the 'Karen' business either. It's a name, how would any of those feel if their name was Karen?

It's not that prevalent here (yet), but much used in the USA.

Gerbil I don't understand your points. I'm not sure whether it's my tiredness today, you not making much sense, or me being a bit dim, but nevermind.

For several reasons using the name Karen as an insult is nasty.

It's extremely sexist and ageist (and in the UK, classist). Whichever country you're in.

But yes it's also racist.

First, because people can't help being born white (or middle class or American) anymore than others can help being born black or brown (or green, if they're Martian). We are all much more than our skin colour, just as we're much more than our eye colour. People are individuals.

Throughout history, the vast majority of people (of all skin colours, including white) had no privilege. That continues today.
In the UK most white people had no voting rights, no say in the country's affairs. Ensuring enough food to survive was their main (often only) concern. Frequently they couldn't even manage this.

This doesn't mean that any form of racism (whoever it's directed at) is ok. Nor should it be ignored, dismissed, or excused. But I don't subscribe to the North Korean notion of guilt by association. It's sinister and divisive.

Separately, it's not ok to use an ethic group's name as an insult. That's not the same as it being someone's given name, which is a compliment and has a long history (unrelated to the Karen people) as a name (I believe it's popular with Hindus as well as Westerners).

Excellent post Sheep

So is your objection that it's racist against white people in the UK, or because it's the name of a tribe?

Because it seems to be both to me.

But white people are not systematically oppressed in the UK because of the colour of their skin

And this name is to do with women in the UK and USA and nothing to do with the Karen tribe.

Is your objection one of these reasons or both?

I've already clearly explained my reasoning. I don't see what more I can say if you don't understand or misinterpret my posts.

Ok well we'll have to agree to disagree then.

That's the beauty of freedom of speech. Being able to agree to disagree.
I always find it interesting hearing other people's viewpoints.

@Mizzler

[[https://www.instagram.com/p/CEpA]]-dlMjj_/?hl=en

I've been trying to learn more about race and racism since the BLM protest movement appeared and I'd been following this Instagram account as a way of trying to understand more about the issues involved.

This post has really troubled me though and I'm struggling to articulate why. I think it's because whilst I completely accept that black and minority ethnic women suffer great disadvantages in the UK, I'm very uncomfortable with the "Karen" meme. It strikes me as deeply misogynistic. In this post, they make reference to a "Karen" asking to speak to a manager as a way of asserting authority. Isn't that what women SHOULD be doing? Being assertive isn't the same as being aggressive, even if women behaving assertively is perceived as aggression by a patriarchal society.

I feel like I'm rambling here and I'd be very grateful for other people's thoughts.

Is the Karen thing misogynistic? I don't think so. It refers to only a certain subset of women, usually white, who behave in a certain unpleasant way. If it was misogynistic it would apply to ALL women, and it doesn't. That's what misogyny means.

It's interesting how something that applies mostly to a small group of white women is given a big label like misogyny, like white women are the only women around.

I was just chatting to my dd about this, saying all the "Karens" I've encountered have been men. She said that she understood the meme to include men and if you see a "Karen" compilation half of them are men. Her understanding was that you dont need to be a woman to be a Karen.

Maybe it's evolving? 🤷🏻‍♀️

it's misogynistic because it refers to women who

step out of line by being assertive
and
are useless because they are no longer attractive to men

ALL women suffer when women are derided for these features because the underlying message is
'women, shut up and look pretty, because that's all you're good for'

Something doesn't need to affect all women to be misogynistic.

EG forced marriage in not practiced in all countries but it's still misogynistic.

Or, rolling back abortion rights in USA only affects USA women but it's still misogynistic.

That's not a great argument.

Of course it's misogynistic.
If it was just about bad behaviour, i.e. racism, the correct description would be 'that nasty racist person'. Not using as a slur, insult, or accusation, a given personal name very common with middle aged women (black as well as white women, in the UK).

FGM is also only going to impact a subsection of women, still think it is misogynistic.

Very little in life is going to impact all women equally it doesn't mean that it isn't
"strongly prejudiced against women."
A dictionary definition of misogynistic.

It is a Venn diagram situation. Is this a prejudice only shown against women? If so surely it is misogynistic, even if not all women are included in the prejudiced behavior. It is nevertheless a sex centered prejudice.

I hate the whole Karen thing due to the blatant misogyny but am finding it odd to hear it about women of a certain age/middle aged. All the Karens I know were born in the 80s, is it really seen as being ancient to be in your 30s??!

All the karens i know are my age or older

Actually i lie....dhs cousin and she must be in her very late thirties/early forties

I think the age thing is definitely relevant. It's about being anti middle-aged women. Look up Karen Alexander. She's a (middle-aged) black American model. It's not just a white name but it is mainly a middle-aged name.

My name is Karen and I really used to like it. Now I see my name being used to slag off working class women, to slag off middle class women, to slag off women who have the nerve to stand up for themselves and as a vehicle for misogyny & ageism. My name has become a slur.

Anyone who uses it is demeaning women. It seems that younger women using this slur don't even realise what they're doing.