Everyday Racism Instagram on "Karen"

[Mizzler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEpA-dlMjj_/?hl=en

I've been trying to learn more about race and racism since the BLM protest movement appeared and I'd been following this Instagram account as a way of trying to understand more about the issues involved.

This post has really troubled me though and I'm struggling to articulate why. I think it's because whilst I completely accept that black and minority ethnic women suffer great disadvantages in the UK, I'm very uncomfortable with the "Karen" meme. It strikes me as deeply misogynistic. In this post, they make reference to a "Karen" asking to speak to a manager as a way of asserting authority. Isn't that what women SHOULD be doing? Being assertive isn't the same as being aggressive, even if women behaving assertively is perceived as aggression by a patriarchal society.

I feel like I'm rambling here and I'd be very grateful for other people's thoughts.

The attitude that ‘karens’ have, using their privilege as a bat to beat down those they see as under them is behaviour that must be challenged. It’s sad that mumsnet seems to care far more about the use of a name and meme than the disgusting attitude these people have.

Then talk about the behaviour, and don't use a real woman's name to describe it.

Or throw around negative generalisations that white middle class women behave like this

and therefore its ok to demonise all white middle class women and have a word to sneer at them if they say anything you don't agree with.

Btw it reminds me of the political lobby who dedicate their lives to trying to prove that white middle class females (it really ought to be illegal to own one at this point, or at least to let it out in public without a muzzle on) are wholly responsible for male violence and its impact on other men.

I say bring back the ducking stool. And the scold's bridle. And put the stakes back at cross roads. Bloody women going around womaning and not knowing their place.

Kness yes I understand it, not sure why that post.

Karen in the UK is not Karen in the USA. It is nonsense here. Karen in the UK is more likely to be working in the shop rather than going around being horrible to those she sees as inferior.

The point that even if no white middle aged woman in the world asked to speak to the manager, black men would still be murdered by white male police officers in the USA.

As ever, women are to blame for everything.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Or throw around negative generalisations that white middle class women behave like this

and therefore its ok to demonise all white middle class women and have a word to sneer at them if they say anything you don't agree with.

Btw it reminds me of the political lobby who dedicate their lives to trying to prove that white middle class females (it really ought to be illegal to own one at this point, or at least to let it out in public without a muzzle on) are wholly responsible for male violence and its impact on other men.

I say bring back the ducking stool. And the scold's bridle. And put the stakes back at cross roads. Bloody women going around womaning and not knowing their place.

Exactly. Well said

Do black men have the right to belittle white women because they’ve spent a lifetime Dealing with racism from people their colour?

Do you think white women should also have the right to belittle black men for sexism?

Using a slur to do so?

It’s sad that mumsnet seems to care far more about the use of a name and meme than the disgusting attitude these people have.

Because it's misogyny, and this is a mainly female site, so we call it out. It has no bearing, as others have pointed out, on systemic racism. It's just a nasty slur for the unimaginative.

It's imported US culture war nonsense.

YY. Totally.

"Because it's misogyny, and this is a mainly female site, so we call it out"

I joined twitter three weeks ago and I have called out a couple of tweets where a guy has referred to a female poster as "Karen". It is definitely a slur used mainly against older, white women, usually when they make negative remarks about anything "woke".

@SinisterBumFacedCat

Age + experience + having/rearing kids = no shits given. And people (Men) really don’t like that when you aren’t pert and pretty.

I think I’d like this printed on a t shirt, or maybe a cross stitch pattern! Fabulous post.

If they PM me, I can point the original person who said this in the direction of a company I've been using recently. They can print it on pretty much anything and they're U.K based.

@Frazzled13

I really agree with the line in the Helen Lewis article where she says "Karen has become synonymous with woman among those who consider woman an insult."

Sometimes when people say "shut up, Karen" what they basically mean is "shut up, woman"

So fucking true.

It’s sad that mumsnet seems to care far more about the use of a name and meme than the disgusting attitude these people have.

These people are individuals with individual names.
Racist behavior occurs in all ages and both sexes in America, it is not the preserve of middle aged women with a particular haircut.
Complaining about service is practically a way of life in USA and again not the preserve of one group of people.
If one group of people is going to singled out for having a disgusting attitude, (presumably focused around race) it is illogical to pick on older white women looking at any statistic focused on race issues, unless I'm missing something?

Individuals should always be pulled up on their behavior and if a particular group is routinely behaving in a particularly bad way then highlighting poor group behavior makes sense.

Taking the piss out of middle aged women because of how they look and having the audacity to refuse to accept poor service isn't going to advance any social issue.

It doesn't happen to men. The bloke in the sandwich shop who kicked off about two young female employees talking Spanish was rightly pulled up on it but he wasn't given a generic male name to describe his racist behavior.
The woman who threatened to call the police in the park was also pulled up on her racism, I saw and heard a lot of people calling her a Karen.
The male cyclist who threatened a girl who was putting up BLM posters was rightfully pulled up on his racism and his violence but there was no handy meme for his behavior complete with nickname.
The male racism in the USA isn't treated in the same way as female racism, it isn't condoning racism to highlight the double standards.
All racism should be condemned and condemned equally focusing on the individuals carrying out the racist acts not mass stereotyping.

I have found my millennial family members easier to shock than they used to be by opinions I express and topics I raise. It's as if, having achieved grandparenthood, I should stop reading and thinking for myself, run any new ideas past them for approval and generally content myself knitting, baking and buying stuff for them and the next generation. 😕

Karen in the UK is not Karen in the USA. It is nonsense here. Karen in the UK is more likely to be working in the shop rather than going around being horrible to those she sees as inferior

Karen doesn’t have class connotations in the US. She’s just an ‘annoying’ woman of a certain age and has only recently been an explicitly white woman.

Before she was a meme frequently discussed by (white) customer service agents and then fairly low-level office workers who had an annoying middle-aged female coworker (often dispensing bad advice and essential oils, lots of times she had some sort of MLM going)

The point that even if no white middle aged woman in the world asked to speak to the manager, black men would still be murdered by white male police officers in the USA

I kind of hate the whole hierarchy of privilege thing, but in the US, we should also keep in mind that black men were, for instance, given the vote before women of any color. Even now, we’ve seen that a black man has already become president, and it seems unlikely that a woman will anytime soon (unless Biden wins and suddenly drops dead, but she would always have an asterisk next to her name).

I do think men are in general, black or otherwise, taken more seriously than women. Just my opinion.

but in the US, we should also keep in mind that black men were, for instance, given the vote before women of any color.

Exactly the same is true of the UK.

Exactly the same is true of the UK

Thanks didn’t know that, I only knew women’s voting rights came earlier in the UK than in the US (from the US)

It was quite a staged process in the UK. Women couldn't vote at all until 1918. Then suffrage was granted universally for adult men and for women aged over 30. It wasn't until the Equal Franchise Act of 1928 that women could vote on the same terms as men.

Men had been able to vote since 1832, albeit subject to meeting property qualifications. There was never any barring of voting in the UK for either sex on racial grounds.

We all know some men are shit, we talk about it enough, doesn’t sit right with me that people are acting as if women should get a free pass and their own behaviour go unchallenged

You have completely missed the point of what is wrong with the Karen meme if you think posters are arguing for letting women off the hook for bad behaviour.

@PlanDeRaccordement

WAP= Wireless Access Pt. I offered to send a picture over my WAP to doubter proving I’m a woman. Not the other thing. I’d not send a naked picture ever.

Funny you thought I was referring to can’t even write the words, in a song. I had not heard WAP used that way before and had to go look it up and it is a very profane and dirty song. But it’s sung by a woman is it not?

Ok. I sincerely apologise for misinterpreting your post. I haven't seen WAP used like that in a long time.

The attitude that ‘karens’ have, using their privilege as a bat to beat down those they see as under them is behaviour that must be challenged. It’s sad that mumsnet seems to care far more about the use of a name and meme than the disgusting attitude these people have

Bullshit. My DH isnt white and our racist white MALE next door neighbour put dog crap on our car. The police were called and he was arrested for a racial hate crime and rightly so.

Where is that guy's offensive meme with people calling him a cunt eh? oh thats right- there isnt one! If you cannot see the inherent misogyny in this meme I pity you.

Loads of people have said it's about middle class women and talked about privilege stemming from that.

If no one is even in agreement as to what it means, that makes it even more nonsensical.

Ok. I sincerely apologise for misinterpreting your post. I haven't seen WAP used like that in a long time.

To be fair to you WAP is pretty much obsolete as a function now so it's not surprising you didn't think of that.

@Quaagars

It was two white males who battered Emmett Till to death and it was a group of white males who acquited them of murder.

I read up on the Emmet Till case after reading about the Central Park incident.
In your talking about it, you have completely erased the white woman who called the police from if I remember correctly, said he'd offended/hurt her and he got lynched.
Turns out she'd made it up
That's the "Karen" here, and that's the behaviour that no-one is ever allowed to mention and it gets brought back to the men do it worse (just like on this thread)
It's all wrong

Turned out she was also a DV victim who made her statement under duress from her pos husband. But sure, let's elide the pos' responsibility for his own heinous crimes (plus the non-crime of woman abuse).

@Quaagars

White American women

Still women.

UK site. Target your argument for the reality that you are not speaking to women steeped in the globally dominant culture of the last centry and a half - ironically, the imperialism that progressives remain wilfully blind to. Stop participating in it. If you have a point to make about the experience of black women retail workers in the UK, make it, instead of relying on this lazy shorthand.

*century

Karen doesn’t have class connotations in the US. She’s just an ‘annoying’ woman of a certain age and has only recently been an explicitly white woman.

I have to agree with you.

On a personal note, I think about my Aunt Karen - the most incredible person (short of my Grandma) to have ever existed IMO and this meme is literally fucking her up. She had brain surgery for cancer and has lost certain cognitive abilities and thinks the memes are about HER and no amount of explanation works as she has lost her ability to form short-term memories. She spends a lot of time online as she is unable to work or drive since surgery. The "Karen" thing is awful but it isn't the hill I am going to die on. I'm just going to keep focusing on the actual Karen in my life that needs reassurance because that is the best possible impact I can have.

I kind of hate the whole hierarchy of privilege thing, but in the US, we should also keep in mind that black men were, for instance, given the vote before women of any color. Even now, we’ve seen that a black man has already become president, and it seems unlikely that a woman will anytime soon (unless Biden wins and suddenly drops dead, but she would always have an asterisk next to her name).

I do think men are in general, black or otherwise, taken more seriously than women. Just my opinion.

I second your perspective.