Everyday Racism Instagram on "Karen"

[Mizzler]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEpA-dlMjj_/?hl=en

I've been trying to learn more about race and racism since the BLM protest movement appeared and I'd been following this Instagram account as a way of trying to understand more about the issues involved.

This post has really troubled me though and I'm struggling to articulate why. I think it's because whilst I completely accept that black and minority ethnic women suffer great disadvantages in the UK, I'm very uncomfortable with the "Karen" meme. It strikes me as deeply misogynistic. In this post, they make reference to a "Karen" asking to speak to a manager as a way of asserting authority. Isn't that what women SHOULD be doing? Being assertive isn't the same as being aggressive, even if women behaving assertively is perceived as aggression by a patriarchal society.

I feel like I'm rambling here and I'd be very grateful for other people's thoughts.

[Wanderingstars4238]

They want to make older women look bad so no one listens to them. Older women understand men better than younger women do and are more likely to be feminist.

[Novelusername]

I'd imagine that older women do complain more than younger women, because they're tired of patriarchy's shit that has worn them down for so many years and have finally found the confidence to stand up for themselves and their rights. This is a way of slapping them back down again. I can count the times I've complained in shops on one hand, but I complained about a staff member in a shop about 2 years ago because he was really rude to me simply for being in the shop half-an-hour before closing time. I felt really self-conscious complaining about him, because I was aware that they'd think of me as a Karen, but this guy was rude in a way I thought he wouldn't be to anyone who wasn't a lone woman - he thought he could get away with it and was verging on being abusive - and just browsing for some clothes and minding my own business, I was really pissed off and a bit shaken up. To think that me not standing for sexist abusive behaviour would then put me in the same bracket as someone who is an anti-vaxxer and an entitled racist (what do these even have to do with each other?!) is ridiculous, but this is what the Karen meme aims to do, tar us all with the same brush for daring to open our mouths. It would surely be more powerful to name the offending behaviours - eg. racism, illogical thinking, being demanding - rather than resorting to name calling, so this shows me the Karen meme is really only about hating older women and silencing them.

[OneEpisode]

I know this is a zombie, but ForrestTrump above relates a totally true experience of it usually being middle aged women who order steak, eat it then complain about it.

It is not my experience that middle aged women disproportionately complain to wait staff unfairly, and it is also not my experience that women in restaurants eat a lot of steak.

Not convinced really, but not being convinced apparently just makes me a Karen?

[EndoplasmicReticulum]

We had to wait 8 months for that punchline!

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

Or boomer

I loathe snowflake as well...

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

Sorry, went off to play cards

You can obviously disagree forrest but my argument still stands

I think its absolutely fine to call out bad behaviour no matter Who it is and if there are masses of middle aged white women being mean to service staff then id be happy if they were called a name to sum up the behaviour

Like gammon as dido mentions, I just feel very very sorry for anyone named Karen at the moment, and sharon and tracey back in the day...anyone whose actual name is used as a descriptor for racism or stupidity or for being mean to people

[DidoLamenting]

Is the Karen thing misogynistic? I don't think so. It refers to only a certain subset of women, usually white, who behave in a certain unpleasant way. If it was misogynistic it would apply to ALL women, and it doesn't. That's what misogyny means

Of course it is. There's no meme for any other group, no matter how appalling their behaviour, other than middle aged, white women. It is misogynistic, ageist and racist.

The closest I suppose is the idiotic "gammon" - which is equally indefensible- but no-one is called Gammon.

[TheRealMcKennaDonsTinfoilHat]

This all sounds very much like ‘she was asking for it’.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

And I think we're focusing far too much on what women are doing wrong to deserve being slurred and called derogatory names, and not nearly enough on this behaviour is plain unacceptable, nasty, socially inappropriate and deeply misogynistic .

[MichelleofzeResistance]

So if some women belittle service staff it's perfectly acceptable to pick a random woman's name and turn it into a collective misogynistic and derogatory slur to use against women?

And women saying a) this is dire for people called Karen, and b) this is being used as a slur against a whole demographic of women is apparently nothing more than a 'diversionary tactic' by women to avoid taking responsibility for and dealing with (how exactly? Would you like burning at the stake or a would a ducking stool do?) let's face it, middle aged white women... doing things that young women and all men do too, but things that men feel entitled to enjoy slurring them for?

Misogyny's definitely a look you're giving a good try, isn't it? FWR rules don't allow negative generalisations incidentally.

[SheepandCow]

Btw how do you know those customers were women, Forrest? It's very transphobic of you to assume their gender.

[SheepandCow]

Brilliant posts Rufus

[NiceGerbil]

Saw a bloke on the high street yesterday shouting at his kids really aggressively.

What a Forrest.

[ArabellaScott]

When I worked as a waitress years ago it wasn't generally the women or younger women who complained, ever. The sort of people who would order a medium rare steak and then kick off about it being undercooked and demand their money back (after eating it) were usually middle aged men. (always in fact). They were also the ones, fwiw, to try and make a pass at me, or be incredibly rude. It's not a big step to wonder if it might even be a hormonal thing. It's a bit of a mean meme but usually there is some truth behind these things.

[ForrestTrump]

No it isnt

It would be like saying that men that beat and murder their partners are a right load of forrests

You know what men called forrest are like

That OJ Simpson was a right forrest

I respectfully disagree.

I think people are focusing far too much on the name and not enough on the demographic and their purported behaviour (a cynic might even wonder if this is a diversionary tactic).

Perhaps it's the women belittling service staff etc who should be held to account for providing the source material for this meme - if we were going to use the usual mumsnet argument we could say that the other members of that class have collective responsibility for speaking out against them.

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

How many forrests does it take to change a lightbulb

None

forrests dont need the lights on to beat their wives

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

Oscar pistorius was a complete forrest

Sad really

[RufustheSniggeringReindeer]

Getting offended by it is a bit like me getting offended when people talk about male violence IMO

No it isnt

It would be like saying that men that beat and murder their partners are a right load of forrests

You know what men called forrest are like

That OJ Simpson was a right forrest

[ForrestTrump]

Getting offended by it is a bit like me getting offended when people talk about male violence IMO. The memes wouldn't exist if 'Karens' didn't act this way.

[ForrestTrump]

When I worked as a waiter years ago it wasn't generally the men or younger women who complained the most. The sort of people who would order a medium rare steak and then kick off about it being undercooked and demand their money back (after eating it) were usually middle aged women. It's not a big step to wonder if it might even be a hormonal thing. It's a bit of a mean meme but usually there is some truth behind these things.

[JesusInTheCabbageVan]

Is the Karen thing misogynistic? I don't think so. It refers to only a certain subset of women, usually white, who behave in a certain unpleasant way. If it was misogynistic it would apply to ALL women, and it doesn't. That's what misogyny means

What a spectacularly dimwitted argument.

[woodhill]

@Bella2020

My name is Karen and I really used to like it. Now I see my name being used to slag off working class women, to slag off middle class women, to slag off women who have the nerve to stand up for themselves and as a vehicle for misogyny & ageism. My name has become a slur.

Anyone who uses it is demeaning women. It seems that younger women using this slur don't even realise what they're doing.

Sorry you have to experience this. Karen's are in my peer group and this whole thing is an absolute cheek

[AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter]

Is the Karen thing misogynistic? I don't think so. It refers to only a certain subset of women, usually white, who behave in a certain unpleasant way. If it was misogynistic it would apply to ALL women, and it doesn't. That's what misogyny means

Of Course its misogynistic! Have you never considered why it is that young attractive women complaining in restaurants or in shops dont get a meme? Oh thats right- because theyre young and hot so have value in society. When women get to a certain age, society dictates they should just bow out gracefully, shut up, and go quietly because they can no longer decorate the world in the way they did in their 20s so basically, they shouldn't be seen because they have no value any more. hence why for actresses, work dries up after age 40 unless you are meryl streep.

Notice how men dont lose their value after a certain age- a man of 45 complaining about poor service in a restaurant doesnt get a meme does he? despite the fact that racism was basically constructed and supported and continued by white men.

Now, think about why it is that its acceptable for men of ALL ages and young women to complain. Yet the only demographic who get raked over the coals for it are women within a very specific age bracket. If you cant see the misogyny there I cant help you....

[HelloToMyKitty]

Is the Karen thing misogynistic? I don't think so. It refers to only a certain subset of women, usually white, who behave in a certain unpleasant way. If it was misogynistic it would apply to ALL women, and it doesn't. That's what misogyny means

It applies to all middle-aged women that society regards as annoying, so sexist and ageist at the same time.

A lot of women in the age cohort may feel unable
to stand up for themselves normally, and this kind of meme is crippling for them.

And yes, most Karens in the USA would have been born in the 60s and 70s, so just at the right age to be pilloried.