Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

[Bb2019]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking on this board and generally following the mainstream uk press about trans issues including the JK Rowling debate etc.

I've been shocked with the likes of Mermaids and the Tavistock centre prescribing under 18s life changing treatments.

I'm still trying to understand the implications and form an informed opinion on the use of women only places by trans women. I understand it would make many women uncomfortable if it were obvious.

Do we have any statistics or research done on how often women or girls have been attacked in their own spaces by men passing as trans women and or by trans women? I know it happens anecdotally but how much more likely is it to happen? Is it isolated incidents or is the risk much heightened? Perhaps it's not possible to do this type of research though due to a paucity of data?

Thanks!

@Kantastic

I shouldn't get sucked into the derail, but I notice that jj appears to think that the horrendous abuses and torture inflicted on women and girls by "grooming gangs" shouldn't be talked about because the right wing weaponise it.

I suppose this is entirely consistent with jj's complete indifference towards violence against women, and callous disregard for womens' suffering, as demonstrated throughout the entirety of this thread. But I have to say that it's deeply distressing to witness this indifference and it's not conducive to a feeling of safety.

I'm sorry but this is unfair, this is not at all what I said. I never said it shouldn't be talked about, but that the way it is talked about is important. I hope there aren't many people on here who support the way the likes of Tommy Robinson and Britain First talk about grooming gangs for example.

when people with a political agenda try to minimise these offences by pretending that they were not committed by real transwomen

The problem for us is that we don't know who is a 'genuine' transwoman is and who is not. We can't even ask the question. So we have to assume that ALL are potentially dangerous in women-only spaces. Because doing otherwise is too great a risk.

the way the likes of Tommy Robinson and Britain First talk about grooming gangs

You mean how they used it to argue against all Muslims?

Then your comparison is indeed unfair, not Kantastic pointing it out.

We have been at pains to say that we are arguing for the existence of specific female-only provisions that exclude ALL males including those who identify as trans. We have not argued against the latter's right to equal access and opportunity, because those can be granted without abolishing the right of females to equal access and opportunity.

And we have done so not because males who identify as trans are trans, but because they are male and males as a class are a danger to females as a class.

Grooming gangs are yet another expression of male violence against females. Yaxley-Lennon and his ilk however (deliberately) mis-identify the problem as Muslim violence. And use it to argue against equal access and opportunity for ALL Muslims in the UK.

The complete opposite of our argument. Twice over.

@ArabellaScott Did you have any sources for suggesting that transwomen are at risk when using men's single sex spaces, for example? From what I've read, they're the safest demographic in the UK.

I don't know any trans women who use men's spaces in the UK so I expect trying to find stats on that would be as difficult as trying to find stats on how many non trans women have been attacked in male spaces.

There is some evidence from the US which shows that trans students who were not allowed to use toilets inline with their gender identity were at higher risk of sexual assault. I haven't actually read the full study yet but there's a summary below (from here: edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html)

Researchers analyzed data from 3,673 adolescents in the LGBTQ Teen Study, an anonymous web-based survey of US kids ages 13 to 17. Students who reported being told by teachers or staff that they could not use restrooms or locker rooms consistent with their sexual identity at school were classified as having "restrictive access."
Just over 1 out of every 4 students in the study, or 25.9%, reported being a victim of sexual assault in the past 12 months. Transgender and gender-nonbinary teens who were subject to restroom or locker room restrictions had an even higher prevalence of sexual assault, at 36%, according to the findings, published Monday in the journal Pediatrics.

The national transgender survey in the US, with a huge sample size, found that 37% of trans women had been sexually assaulted in their lifetime and 10% of trans people overall had been sexually assaulted in the last year. Shockingly it also found half of trans men had been sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Both these figures are higher than reported assaults on non trans men and women and I do suspect that gender ambiguity may actually attract predatory men, possibly because they think trans people won't be believed, or won't report it, or as I mentioned earlier see them as a sexualised subclass to whom the normal rules of behaviour don't apply.

The survey also found that 13% of trans people had been physically assaulted in the last year, and 5% of trans people reported being physically attacked in public by a stranger in the last year. Trans people of colour across all measures were even more likely to face both physical and sexual assaults. (www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF)

I really don't think the claim of trans being the safest demographic stands up very well in the face of the evidence.

Have you not heard of Miranda Yardley and Fionne Orlander, Debbie Hayton, etc?

Lots of transwomen use male spaces, without any incident that I've heard of. Although there is this campaign, maybe you could get behind it?

mirandayardley.com/en/a-plea-for-third-spaces-for-transmen-and-transwomen/

The US is a completely different country; I believe trans people there have pretty dreadful discrimination to contend with in legal terms, and I don't think the comparisons work very well.

If you're stuck for stats, let me help you out:

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

'in the UK at least, a trans person is less likely to be murdered than the average person.'

Also: 'The Office for National Statistics say they are working on creating a standard process for recording violence against trans people.' - that'll be interesting to see.

I'm sorry I know I said that I was finished but I can't let this pass

" higher than reported cased of non trans men and women."
As most sexual assaults on women are not reported this is a very easy statistic to brandish and yet every woman knows that the number of women who at the very least have been groped by a total stranger is much closer to 100%. I personally have been groped multiple times, been flashed at and masturbated at. The only assault reported to the police was because I was followed home and at that the first question was "What were you wearing?
So only half have experienced a sexual assault at some time during their life, if that is the case then they are indeed a far safer demographic than women.

@ArabellaScott Yes I've heard of the people you mention. I believe the represent the exception rather than the rule, and certainly Debbie has only just started using men's toilets, if she actually does anywhere but Woman's Place meetings. But it's really very unusual, I very much doubt enough trans women have used men's spaces to even be able to generate any meaningful statistics.

I appreciate the situation is not exactly the same in the US, but when it comes to sexual violence then I think those statistics have relevance. Pretty much every trans women I know has been a victim of sexual violence or harassment. And I know you all don't like Stonewall much so I didn't want to use their research, although I'm not sure they've done any on sexual assaults specifically.

I don't think you can say anything at all about the rate of violence or sexual violence towards trans women from the murder statistics. The data is far too noisy. I suspect that trans women are probably murdered at around the same rate as non trans women but it's impossible to say when for sure when no-one knows with any real certainty how many trans women there are in the uK.

I agree with ArabellaScott here. We are debating a specific UK law and statistics about the safety of people who identify as trans under very different legal circumstances in the US is irrelevant in this context.

For instance, the experience the trans students had in that study is far less likely to happen in the UK precisely because UK law means schools cannot force pupils who identify as trans to use the facilities provided for their own sex. But this is legal in some US states.

However, if you consult the EHRC Technical Guidance for Schools, you will find that they state explicitly that such students must not be forced to use the facilities provided for their own sex because that would be unlawful discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment. They must be offered alternative solutions instead. (Such as the use of facilities provided for teachers.)

This isn't an arbitrary limitation by any means, that we pick and choose as we please. The judgement which evidence is relevant depends on the precise argument you are making in support of your position.

So when your argument is a general one, like your claim that as a group, males who identify as trans are not as dangerous as the male sex class as a whole, then evidence to the contrary (or in support of your argument) does not have to be localised to the UK.

But when you are arguing that applying a specific UK law the way we say it works will increase risk to those who identify as trans, then any evidence for or against does have to be relevant to the UK.

*I'm sorry but this is unfair, this is not at all what I said. I never said it shouldn't be talked about, but that the way it is talked about is important. I hope there aren't many people on here who support the way the likes of Tommy Robinson and Britain First talk about grooming gangs for example8

What on earth are you talking about? Many women here are life time activists, predominantly on the left.Campaign for your own spaces, and there would be little issue........Apart from, of course, the medicalisation of childhood gender non conformity.

@334bu The CNN piece includes comparators for non trans students who have been assaulted in the last year

The rates of sexual assault for nontrans US teens, those whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth, is 15% for girls and 4% for boys, according to the Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance Survey administered by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

This is similar to rates of sexual assault reported by Rape Crisis: In the year to the end of March 2017, the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) estimated:

20% of women and 4% of men have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16, equivalent to 3.4 million female and 631,000 male victims.  <a class="break-all" href="https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/</a>

I don't really want to get bogged down with this. It's not a competition. But I hope people can recognise that these figures show that trans people are at risk of sexual violence, significantly more at risk than non trans men are for example, who in terms of sexual violence at least are actually very much the safest demographic.

I suspect that trans women are probably murdered at around the same rate as non trans women

Most transwomen murders occur in places such as South America, and in communities in which there is also much homophobia. Most transwomen deaths occur amongst those working in prostitution; a notoriously dangerous occupation for anyone involved.

Did you now that 50,000 women have been murdered in Mexico alone in the last twenty years? The stats and comparisons just don't bear any resemblance. Women are murdered every day and every week in the U.K. your stats bear no resemblance to truth; and even if they did that does not make for a sound argument for the invasion and colonisation of women's spaces.

Also I take exception to your referencing of women as being 'non trans'...as if being 'trans' is the primary state. it isn't!

‘Pretty much every trans women I know has been a victim of sexual violence or harassment‘

Every women I know has been a victim of sexual violence or harassment many times over, and usually starting from puberty, which can be as young as 10 (it was in my case). Hence why I feel so strongly that women and girls need single-sex spaces.

but it's impossible to say when for sure when no-one knows with any real certainty how many trans women there are in the uK

That's right; and with Self Id it would be a totally movable feast.

@Justhadathought

Also I take exception to your referencing of women as being 'non trans'...as if being 'trans' is the primary state. it isn't!

Look there's obviously a word I would use in it's place because non trans is ridiculously clunky but I'm not sure it's allowed on here and I realise even if it is it may cause offence. Equally I dont feel comfortable using transwomen or transman as a means to differentiate. I'm not complainig abot the language used by anyone else, can we not at least agree that it's okay to discuss in the ways we personally consider respectful (and within the rules of the site of course).

Woman is allowed on here. And man.

I'm not complainig abot the language used by anyone else, can we not at least agree that it's okay to discuss in the ways we personally consider respectful (and within the rules of the site of course)

No! You have knowingly come onto a women's rights board, populated by women who have often spent life times involved in women's issues as well, as in many other justice movements. You don't get to impose your own version of reality and have it not challenged at every turn.

would any of us stand any chance on a trans forum, or even on most forms of social media just outlining our experience of reality and our own view? The answer is no.

So count yourself privileged that so many good and intelligent women have been generous enough to entertain your numerous long posts - which in many parts go against every grain in our being. In between family responsibilities, preparing and cooking dinner and looking after the general well being of others.

Equally I dont feel comfortable using transwomen or transman as a means to differentiate

I suggest you might find some liberation in acknowledging that there is a differentiation, rather than in denying it, or pretending it does not exist. Transwomen sich as Miranda Yardley, and others, have no such issue, and they are actually far more sympathetic to the women that they identify with than you could ever be.

Transwomen, by definition, are different and discrete to women. Not the same at all.

@Justhadathought

I'm not complainig abot the language used by anyone else, can we not at least agree that it's okay to discuss in the ways we personally consider respectful (and within the rules of the site of course)

No! You have knowingly come onto a women's rights board, populated by women who have often spent life times involved in women's issues as well, as in many other justice movements. You don't get to impose your own version of reality and have it not challenged at every turn.

would any of us stand any chance on a trans forum, or even on most forms of social media just outlining our experience of reality and our own view? The answer is no.

So count yourself privileged that so many good and intelligent women have been generous enough to entertain your numerous long posts - which in many parts go against every grain in our being. In between family responsibilities, preparing and cooking dinner and looking after the general well being of others.

Well in that case I'll count myself privileged and bow out now because I don;t think I've got anything more of value to add to this thread's aspect of the debate, but thank you to those who have engaged respectfully.

I said way, way back that this thread has the most words I've seen to basically say "fuck women and girls, men are more important" Whilst I agree you are saying things in a respectful way, I do not think you are saying respectful things. You have no care for anything other than the agenda you are pushing which says a lot more about you than the wonderful women here who have had the patience to continue responding to you.

Look there's obviously a word I would use in it's place because non trans is ridiculously clunky but I'm not sure it's allowed on here and I realise even if it is it may cause offence.

That word would be woman.

Woman.

It's pretty simple. No need for any further elaborations, bolt-on prefixes or qualifiers.

Woman. Women.

I came on this thread yesterday, saw it was being derailed, and thought I would wait until it got back on track. Came on again just now 24 hours later, and looks like the derailing didn't stop in all that time. Wow. Just fucking wow.

gender ambiguity may actually attract predatory men, possibly because they think trans people won't be believed, or won't report it, or as I mentioned earlier see them as a sexualised subclass to whom the normal rules of behaviour don't apply.

Or these might be very troubled young people who are poor at assessing risk and put themselves in dangerous situations... such as obvious young women using male spaces.