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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stats on attack on women by men self identifying as women?

529 replies

Bb2019 · 13/08/2020 15:16

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking on this board and generally following the mainstream uk press about trans issues including the JK Rowling debate etc.

I've been shocked with the likes of Mermaids and the Tavistock centre prescribing under 18s life changing treatments.

I'm still trying to understand the implications and form an informed opinion on the use of women only places by trans women. I understand it would make many women uncomfortable if it were obvious.

Do we have any statistics or research done on how often women or girls have been attacked in their own spaces by men passing as trans women and or by trans women? I know it happens anecdotally but how much more likely is it to happen? Is it isolated incidents or is the risk much heightened? Perhaps it's not possible to do this type of research though due to a paucity of data?

Thanks!

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 20/08/2020 23:05

anyone who identifies as a trans woman is fine too.

Anyone at all. On their say so.

This logic is how a woman was strip searched by a male police officer in Portland last week. When queried, the response was 'how do you know he doesn't identify as female?'.

That is where this gets us. Women lose again. Abuse of power comes as no surprise, as the saying goes .

PrawnofthePatriarchy · 20/08/2020 23:07

When I say miniscule I mean less than double figures.

Here's a selection of 17 dangerous predatory MTFs for you, jj1968:

The Twitter hashtag #notourcrimes brings up many, many more.

334bu · 20/08/2020 23:08

But transwomen who identify late in life assert that they have always been women. This is why they need to change their birth certificateto validate this inherent identity despite the fact that all other documentation ,like passports can be changed without a new birth certificate.

Stopthisnow · 20/08/2020 23:08

I have been involved in discussions like this for over a decade, and in the last few years conversations with genderists (those who believe identifying as women or men should confer the opposite sex rights to them) always go a certain way.

Females say we don’t want males in our spaces, sports, awards etc, and give a multitude of reasons why, including offering endless evidence that males pose a physical threat to females, and suggest males uncomfortable using male spaces or competing against other males campaign for their own third spaces, events, awards etc.

Genderists then argue a subset of males have been using female spaces for years with no problems, and females are just being alarmists if we say we want female spaces for reasons of safety. Genderists deny all the evidence of the incidences that are provided to them, which show males have committed crimes against women in female only spaces, and deny that a subset of males (who identify as women) pose the same risk to females as any other male. Interestingly, genderists cannot provide any evidence that this subset of males are less of a risk to females than any other male. Instead genderists expect us to accept their belief that when a male claims he is a woman, he somehow acquires a female offending pattern, despite evidence suggesting males retain a male offending pattern after full genital surgery (let alone after simply identifying). Their line of argument shows that genderists rely solely on us accepting their ideology rather than any facts.

Genderists also claim if females succeed in retaining female only spaces we will be responsible for a subset of males being attacked in male spaces. Interestingly, despite genderists demand that females justify our need for safe spaces away from males, genderists do not seem able to produce any evidence that a subset of males are at an increased risk of being attacked in male spaces in the UK than any others males. They also refuse to campaign for third spaces for themselves, which would keep them safe away from males (if they really are at an increase risk in male spaces), and would not involve them violating female’s boundaries. Their argument here shows that they demand females justify our need for female only spaces, yet they cannot justify their own need for spaces away from other males, let alone why they should be permitted into female spaces rather than campaigning for their own third spaces. Also the implication that we are putting them at risk by not allowing them into our spaces is a form of emotional manipulation.

When females raise our right to privacy away from males, that is completely ignored by genderists. They seem to think a male’s desire to be in a female only space should trump female’s desire for privacy away from males, and females who object to a male’s presence should be overruled, as a male’s feeling should take priority. This shows the misogyny that has always been at the foundation of genderist ideology.

When females point out UK law allows female spaces that exclude males for reasons of safety, privacy and dignity genderists argue that it doesn’t. This seems to be genderists trying to gaslight and interpret the law the way they want it to be, rather than what it actually says, which is why they infiltrate various institutions etc, to try and dictate policy.

When all the above arguments fail genderists resort to arguing that retaining female only spaces will result in males being able to discriminate against females in other areas. This is a totally nonsense argument and is really grasping at straws, they are trying to convince us that if we give a subset of males access to our spaces we won’t be penalised in other ways by other males. It really is obvious that genderists will try any tactic to get what they want.

It has been clear for many years that genderists believe that the law should not grant females the right exclude all males from our spaces; they believe that feelings of a subset of males should be permitted to overrule female’s right to female only spaces. When a male (or a group of males) continually demand entrance to female spaces, when females have already said we don’t want any males in our spaces, that male (or group of males) are showing himself (themselves) to be a serious danger to females, as he (they) will not take a female’s no for an answer. I see little point in arguing with genderists, other than to highlight to other women what genderists are aiming for; which of course is to strip females of our sex based rights, so that a subset of males can obtain entrance to our spaces, awards, sports etc. Males have to learn that females no means no! No amount of gaslighting, emotional manipulation, threats or pretence of civility will change that no! Male genderists need to accept that and campaign for their own spaces if they don’t want to share spaces with other males.

AlbusSirius · 20/08/2020 23:11

@jj1968

in fact I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but I don't recall seeing any newspaper report of a transwoman being assaulted in a men's toilet or changing rooms.

That's because trans women don't use men's toilets or changing rooms.

Really am off to bed now.

But you are saying they must use the women's because the men's is too dangerous.

And now you are admitting that you don't actually know the men's is dangerous Confused

You aren't making much sense

334bu · 20/08/2020 23:19

Yes it is blatantly obvious that jj1968 believes that transwomen's rights to be validated in their gender identity trump's all women's rights to safety,privacy and dignity.
Any evidence that could show that this is unfair and often dangerous for women is to be ignored, minimised and when all else fails be lied about.
Misrepresentation of the law is repeated over and over again. As someone said several pages ago their argument is basically a long and incredibly verbose" fuck off to women."

334bu · 20/08/2020 23:27

Stopthisnow

Yes we are now 19 pages into transgender bingo and I believe all the balls have been drawn but I might be wrong there still could be one or two more to come.

CharlieParley · 20/08/2020 23:36

@KnowingYou

The word exception refers not to this being a rare event or situation but that under specific circumstances the general rule doesn't apply.

Yes that does make sense. Doesn’t apply? Or doesn’t have to apply?

The general rule is that discrimination is unlawful. The exceptions lay out specific circumstances when the general rule doesn't apply and discrimination is lawful.

It is always lawful under those circumstances, but the decision as to whether an exception is used is either down to other regulations (like the school building regulations) or those providing the provision in question.

ItsLateHumpty · 21/08/2020 00:44

With respect you are implying things that have not been said.

And not listening to the things that have.

Like much of the TRA rhetoric, traffic is only ever one way.

Again jj www.womenarehuman.com/tag/united-kingdom/

Personally I do not care if transwomen commit crimes at a comparable rate to women (they don’t).

I want to retain single sex spaces as the status quo because it’s what I want, and I shouldn’t have to justify my reasons or prove I’ve suffered from male violence.

If the status quo needs to be changed, then TRAs need to present compelling evidence, that works universally for all women, and girls, not just for (generally) privileged western non-religious women.

I’ve not yet seen a compelling argument let alone evidence.

ItsLateHumpty · 21/08/2020 00:46

PS there are many awesome contributors on this thread, and I much admire your patience and knowledge Brew

KingFredsTache · 21/08/2020 08:22

Here's a selection of 17 dangerous predatory MTFs for you, jj1968:

Just to say, for the benefit of @jj1968 and any other 'this never happens'ers, it's actually 71 dangerous predatory MTFs.

Justhadathought · 21/08/2020 09:25

When posts start getting deleted you know that the people reporting have run out of arguments.

As I said yesterday, whilst protection from actual physical harm is one of the reasons why we have single sex spaces, it is not purely about freedom from assault, but also freedom from the imposition of sexual fetish in intimate spaces, and also about the inherent need for the privacy and dignity of one's sex.

By the relentless lobbying for self Id and by extending the demographic and variety of people now defined as trans under the trans umbrella, along with the repeated chanting of TWAW...the cause has not been served well at all.

jj1968 · 21/08/2020 12:48

@KingFredsTache

Here's a selection of 17 dangerous predatory MTFs for you, jj1968:

Just to say, for the benefit of @jj1968 and any other 'this never happens'ers, it's actually 71 dangerous predatory MTFs.

I'm not sure it's accurate to describe people convicted of possession of drugs and benefit fraud as dangerous and predatory. I think this is what makes me uncomfortable with some aspects of GC activism. I think most people on here would recognise that a video that solely consisted of a list of people from a certain ethnic group, or lesbians/gay men, or any other marginalised group, who had committed crimes, has the potential to cause social harm. And in fact it has been a common tactic both by far right groups and the right wing press who are well aware that presenting endless stories of criminality aimed at a certain group increases social disapproval of, or hatred towards that group. It's how the campaign to marginalise people on benefits was so successful. The far right uses the same tactics against Muslims and refugees.

Now I understand there is an argument that it's different when it comes to trans people, that there is a situation of urgency and women are at risk and so this kind of thing is necessary. Well okay, I'm not sure I agree, but even accepting that then surely there should be a recognition that it should be done very, very carefully. To claim that this video represents 71 dangerous and predatory people, when indeed some are, but some are also very low level and in some cases non violent offences (and not everyone was even convicted, a couple of people on that list were aquitted), feels really dubious to me. I think it could be perceived by trans people as an attempt in incite hatred towards them.

I also think this is one reason that much of the refuge and VAWG sector has not swung behind the GC movement. As someone who has worked with (so called) 'vulnerable' people I felt very uncomfortable that some of the people on that list seemed to have obvious mental health problems and had not committed serious offences but were being paraded alongside child abusers. People working in refuge's work with women who've committed these kinds of offences all the time. I think many people working in social care would feel deeply uncomfortable with vulnerable and damaged people being shamed and exposed on social media like this in order to make a political point.

334bu · 21/08/2020 13:04

Many people in prison suffer from mental health issues. Many male prisoners are very vulnerable in male prisons because of mental health issues. However, nobody is asking for these men to be transferred to women's prisons because it is accepted that male prisoners pose a serious risk to the physical and mental health of female prisoners. Transwomen are equally members of the male sex, so why are they treated differently.? What peer reviewed evidence is there to prove that transition in itself reduces the propensity for violence in this subset of the male sex?

midgebabe · 21/08/2020 13:16

@334bu

Many people in prison suffer from mental health issues. Many male prisoners are very vulnerable in male prisons because of mental health issues. However, nobody is asking for these men to be transferred to women's prisons because it is accepted that male prisoners pose a serious risk to the physical and mental health of female prisoners. Transwomen are equally members of the male sex, so why are they treated differently.? What peer reviewed evidence is there to prove that transition in itself reduces the propensity for violence in this subset of the male sex?
The only excuse is that Male mental health issues are more important than female ones

It would not surprise me if that underlies the ability of so many people to accept this. The idea that a transwomen will have had surgery, so must be seriously ill, and women are tough creatures used to abuse ...

TorkTorkBam · 21/08/2020 13:20

Society tries to make women sacrifice themselves to save poor troubled men.

This whole argument is more of the same.

Either prisons need to be sex segregated or they don't.

Male prisoners being mentally unwell is a bad reason to require non-consenting female prisoners to live with them.

KingFredsTache · 21/08/2020 13:30

I think this is what makes me uncomfortable with some aspects of GC activism. I think most people on here would recognise that a video that solely consisted of a list of people from a certain ethnic group, or lesbians/gay men, or any other marginalised group, who had committed crimes, has the potential to cause social harm. And in fact it has been a common tactic both by far right groups and the right wing press who are well aware that presenting endless stories of criminality aimed at a certain group increases social disapproval of, or hatred towards that group. It's how the campaign to marginalise people on benefits was so successful. The far right uses the same tactics against Muslims and refugees.

It's not the same. We know that males as a class are way more dangerous and risky than women. The statistics clearly show this. This is not the case for Muslims vs Christian, Black vs White, gay vs straight etc. When black people weren't allowed to share with white people that wasn't based on anything concrete. We don't allow males to share with females because the facts show that as a class males are a risk to female.

The reason that this video has been made is to illustrate that it doesn't matter if a male puts on a dress, wears make up, adopts a feminine name, if they are a dangerous, criminal male, they will remain a dangerous criminal male however they 'identify'. And the vast majority of dangerous criminals are male.

Of course that is not to show that all transwoman are dangerous criminals. In the same way that if I made a video of 71 males who identify as males who had committed crimes, it wouldn't mean all men are dangerous criminals.

As I said before, my DH is not a dangerous predator, but he is still not allowed in the ladies because he is in the male sex class - is that wrong?

ArabellaScott · 21/08/2020 13:31

So, jj, you have insisted that instances of transwoman proving a threat to women in single sex spaces 'doesn't happen'.

Evidence of exactly these instances is posted, and now you complain that bringing up examples is 'marginalising' people.

So - 'this never happens', do you think that might be because we're just not allowed to talk about it?

Given that newspapers have to report pronouns as given, and police record crime as self ID sex, it's quite possible that there are more of these instances that we just don't know about.

How do you suggest the evidence be presented if factual information is considered to be 'shaming' and 'exposing'? Bearing in mind all of that information is freely available, reported in news, etc.

jj1968 · 21/08/2020 13:50

@ArabellaScott

So, jj, you have insisted that instances of transwoman proving a threat to women in single sex spaces 'doesn't happen'.

Evidence of exactly these instances is posted, and now you complain that bringing up examples is 'marginalising' people.

So - 'this never happens', do you think that might be because we're just not allowed to talk about it?

Given that newspapers have to report pronouns as given, and police record crime as self ID sex, it's quite possible that there are more of these instances that we just don't know about.

How do you suggest the evidence be presented if factual information is considered to be 'shaming' and 'exposing'? Bearing in mind all of that information is freely available, reported in news, etc.

I think it's possible to make the point that you disagree with the media or police referring to trans women who've been accused of crimes as women without a big long list of trans criminals some of whom have been convicted of very minor offences, or not even convicted at all in some cases.

To come at this another way, if you were a far right group, and you sole aim was to increase social hostility towards trans people, then wouldn't a video like this be one of your go to techniques? Isn't this exactly how hate groups operate and seek to build prejudice towards minorities? Why the far right go on and on about grooming gangs whilst ignoring predators from other ethnicities? There is ample evidence that the way minorities are depicted in the media influences social perceptions of them, and the way they are treated socially. I don't think it's unreasonable if trans women are concerned that people watching a video like that might be more likely to discriminate against them, behave in a hostile way towards them, or even in some cases place them at increased risk if violence. That may not be the intention of those behind the video, I have no idea, but it is likely to be the effect and it's unnecessary to make the point the video was making. It looks like propaganda, the kind of propaganda we have seen before in history and which has led to horrifying outcomes. It is not a neutral act, whatever the intention behind it.

Muttonindistress · 21/08/2020 14:03

‘Why the far right go on and on about grooming gangs whilst ignoring predators from other ethnicities?’

Interesting that you should use this example because, while I absolutely agree with your statement re far right groups, it’s also the case that the Asian grooming gangs where allowed to carry on offending and seriously harming young girls even once the authorities were aware of what was happening because everyone was afraid of seeming to vilify a minority group. Aren’t we in danger of doing the same if we refuse to acknowledge the crimes of transwomen (or men pretending to be transwomen)?

334bu · 21/08/2020 14:03

Constantly changing the mantra trans women are women, constantly misrepresenting the law , lobbying for the removal of a vulnerable group's rights, cancelling anyone who doesn't agree with your views, violently disrupting peaceful meetings, targeting employers to have women removed from their jobs, denying biological because it counters your political philosophy, denying any debate on potential conflicts of rights........etc.etc. Hardly neutral acts might almost be" propaganda, the like we have seen before in history and which has led to horrific outcomes..."

jj1968 · 21/08/2020 14:04

*So, jj, you have insisted that instances of transwoman proving a threat to women in single sex spaces 'doesn't happen'.

Evidence of exactly these instances is posted, and now you complain that bringing up examples is 'marginalising' people.*

Only 2 of the people in that video were convicted of an offence that took place in a woman's space. The same two people who come up over and over again because it's the only times it has happened. I have never said it never happens, I have said it is incredibly rare and that the risk of being assaulted by a trans woman in a women's space is probably 100s of millions to one.

334bu · 21/08/2020 14:11

There we go again they weren't real transwomen, they only assaulted women in a mixed sex area, they weren't trans when they did it, the trans sex offenders in prison aren't really trans so it's ok that of the trans prisoners in England nearly half are sex offenders.

jj1968 · 21/08/2020 14:13

@Muttonindistress

‘Why the far right go on and on about grooming gangs whilst ignoring predators from other ethnicities?’

Interesting that you should use this example because, while I absolutely agree with your statement re far right groups, it’s also the case that the Asian grooming gangs where allowed to carry on offending and seriously harming young girls even once the authorities were aware of what was happening because everyone was afraid of seeming to vilify a minority group. Aren’t we in danger of doing the same if we refuse to acknowledge the crimes of transwomen (or men pretending to be transwomen)?

I think you can make the point that 71 trans women who were committed of ctrimes in the last few years were referred to as women by the press or police without a half hour long video showing each and every one, regardless of if they were even convicted with lurid photographs designed to portray them in the worst possible light. Just as you could have raised the point that there were reports of some Asian men involved in organised grooming of young girls without making a half hour video consisting solely of a list of young Asian men convicted of a range of crimes, some of them quite minor, complete with names and photographs.

I think that looks a lot like propaganda to me. I think it does to most people, and I think it's why there are concerns that there are elements operating within GC circles whose agenda is to incite hatred towards trans people.

334bu · 21/08/2020 14:43

When statistics on female crimes are skewed by including male offenders who identify as transwomen and when people with a political agenda try to minimise these offences by pretending that they were not committed by real transwomen, it is perhaps not surprising that some people might feel that the shock effect of the above video , unnecessarily lurid or not, is necessary to bring attention to a very real threat to female safety.

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